Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ManM · 10-11-2002, 04:01 PM

K,
Where are you coming from? You make it sound as if someone or something had to be appeased. God didn't have to die for us. He could have very well left us to fall into eternal nonexistence. He didn't want us to fall into nonexistence, and so he chose to help us.

Why did Jesus live the life He did? Why not just eat a twinkie? Salvation doesn't depend solely on the will of God, but on us as well. Eating a twinkie would not have had the same effect on humanity as did His life.

K · 10-11-2002, 04:23 PM

ManM:

Here is where I'm coming from.

You have said that Jesus' death saved us. How did God dying save us? If God didn't create the universe such that God's death would save humanity, who created it like that? What is it about the death of God that saves the world? Who or what set up the rules of the game?

Does this sequence make logical sense to you?

Q: We are sinners what can be done to save us?
A: We could kill God.

I've phrased it as many different ways as I can think of.

Bible Humper · 10-11-2002, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Where are you coming from? You make it sound as if someone or something had to be appeased. God didn't have to die for us. He could have very well left us to fall into eternal nonexistence. He didn't want us to fall into nonexistence, and so he chose to help us.

Rewording it does make it seem less ridiculous at first glance, but there is still the same problem.

You can say that it would have been "our fault" if the deity had left us to "fall into nonexistence", but this is like leaving your child on the balcony alone and and saying "it was her fault she fell".

There is also a problem rationalising why the deity didn't just twitch his eyebrows for the same effect as the whole dramatic crucifixion in all it's gory majesty.

It is said that the whole debacle was needed for Jesus the avatar to "pay for our sins", so what other interpretation is possible than that it was necessary for him to dramatically sacrifice himself as a bribe to himself to appease himself for his own judgement regarding his creation's sins which he defines himself?

hinduwoman · 10-11-2002, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManM:
hinduwoman,

The healthy do not need a doctor. If you are well, do you give yourself a sickness so that the doctor will heal you?

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: ManM ]

But if I am entering a institution that only takes healthy people then I would expect the doctor to give me a fitness certificate: but christianity says that being healthy is not required to enter there, what is required is to pay only this doctor and no other. Talk about extortion!

hinduwoman · 10-11-2002, 05:47 PM

I see two problems:

1) what about the good people? why did Jesus not tell them that he had come to save them as well? If only sick children get all the attention from father and visit to Disneyland, then I want to be sick too, not healthy and ignored!

2) Let us agree that all of us are sinners. Then surely if people in spite of their naturally sinful nature do good in this fallen world that has fallen away from the Source of Goodness, then they should be praised and petted all the more.

B. H. Manners · 10-11-2002, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bible Humper:


I can do everything the apostles did, I just need the right scrolls and wands handy.

In fact, I remember seeing that some of the very earliest paintings of Jesus had him carrying a wand, used for healing IIRC.

Bible Humper,

Could you provide any links or reference works about this? I would like to know more and find the idea fascinating.

B. H. Manners · 10-11-2002, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
Okay kids I'm going off script here. I've thought a lot about this issue and here are some thoughts I've had. The following words and opinions belong to luvluv only, and are not necessarily those of Christianity or God Himself.

I think it is possible that God's sacrifice was not to Himself, but to us.

Jesus did not die on a cross to appease an angry God, He died on the cross as an appeal to lost and hurting men. This is how I've seen it function most often. Christians respond to the sacrifice of Jesus as if it were made FOR THEM and not for God, and that is the attraction. Jesus Himself said "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me."

To many, the notion of a Savior who would suffer and give their lives for them, and who would have done it if they were the only person who ever lived, is an example of the love that they have been looking for, and a shining example of love they long to emulate. Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for a friend.

There are many examples in the Old Testament of God extending mercy to his followers, and even forgiveness. It doesn't seem to follow from the Old Testament that God was incapable of forgiving. In fact, even many non-Hebrew communities were aware of the fact that while Yahweh would not hesitate to follow through on his threats, He was very quick to forgive if people truly repented for their wrong actions. It doesn't seem logical to me that God could not forgive people without the aid of a sacrifice.

The one explanation of this that makes sense to me (and at this point I am speaking in the name of the tradition of Christianity) is the fact that God told Adam that the soul that sins will surely die, and that God cannot go back on His word. Therefore, after He made that statement, He had to construct a means by which He could save us from the consequences of our actions. To that end Jesus gave His life. I guess you could ask, then, why didn't God just watch what He said? Well, I think it's possible that God wanted humanity to know of the gravity of sin, and that's why he instituted death (there are words to that effect in Genesis. God said that "My soul will not strive with man forever" and then decided to institute a life span for man). It's possible, given free will, that in a world in which it was not possible to die no one would ever take their actions very seriously. So the entire affair of setting up a penalty for sin and then overcoming it may yield a better end result than never setting up a penalty for sin. And setting the price of sin high may, in the end, bring more people to a relationship with God than setting the bar low. And a price that requires part of the Godhead to sacrifice Himself is about as high as it can get.

So, to answer K's question, God may have chosen this route because it was the best possible route. The extreme nature of the sacrifice carries with it a stronger emotional appeal than perhaps any other act. (I think the decision to end all death and suffering would make people ultimately less concerned about their morality)

From this standpoint, substitutionary atonement makes sense to me. But I still believe it could be simeltaneously true that the sacrifice was as much TO US as it was FOR US.

I do not agree with everything you have written above but wanted to bring up something many theologians have said. It has been argued that death after the fall was actually a consequence of sin, and not per see a punishment. The reason this conclusion has been formed is because 1. It says in one of the prophets that the reason the righteous die is to get them away from all the wickedness in the word. and 2. God does forgive sin, which by definition is pardon, and since God cannot lie the death the "forgiven" suffer must somehow be non-punitive in nature.

I disagree with theism, but I thought our theistic friends here would like to hear and reflect on what I wrote above. Once again, I apologize for making reference to scriptures without showing the actual chapter and verse. All of my commentaries, aids, Greek reference works, ect.are still locked up in the storage shed due to my move.

Bible Humper · 10-11-2002, 07:32 PM

Hello BH!

It's too bad I can't remember where the site I was thinking of is,

<a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/catacombs.html" target="_blank">Christian catacombs in Rome</a>

Skip down to the second article where the wand is mentioned. I saw a site with much more info somewhere, but can't seem to find it right now.

Bible Humper · 10-11-2002, 08:20 PM

Here's a picture of Jesus using his wand to raise Lazarus from the dead.

<a href="http://www.belmont.edu/honorsprogram/CatPix/CatPix.html" target="_blank">Picture</a>

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Bible Humper ]

No images in EOG?

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Bible Humper ]

B. H. Manners · 10-11-2002, 08:39 PM

Thanks for the links Bible Humper.

10-11-2002, 08:20 PM	#39
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	Here's a picture of Jesus using his wand to raise Lazarus from the dead. <a href="http://www.belmont.edu/honorsprogram/CatPix/CatPix.html" target="_blank">Picture</a> [ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Bible Humper ] No images in EOG? [ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Bible Humper ]</p>

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10-11-2002, 04:01 PM	#31
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	K, Where are you coming from? You make it sound as if someone or something had to be appeased. God didn't have to die for us. He could have very well left us to fall into eternal nonexistence. He didn't want us to fall into nonexistence, and so he chose to help us. Why did Jesus live the life He did? Why not just eat a twinkie? Salvation doesn't depend solely on the will of God, but on us as well. Eating a twinkie would not have had the same effect on humanity as did His life.

10-11-2002, 04:23 PM	#32
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	ManM: Here is where I'm coming from. You have said that Jesus' death saved us. How did God dying save us? If God didn't create the universe such that God's death would save humanity, who created it like that? What is it about the death of God that saves the world? Who or what set up the rules of the game? Does this sequence make logical sense to you? Q: We are sinners what can be done to save us? A: We could kill God. I've phrased it as many different ways as I can think of.

10-11-2002, 05:47 PM	#35
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	I see two problems: 1) what about the good people? why did Jesus not tell them that he had come to save them as well? If only sick children get all the attention from father and visit to Disneyland, then I want to be sick too, not healthy and ignored! 2) Let us agree that all of us are sinners. Then surely if people in spite of their naturally sinful nature do good in this fallen world that has fallen away from the Source of Goodness, then they should be praised and petted all the more.

10-11-2002, 07:32 PM	#38
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	Hello BH! It's too bad I can't remember where the site I was thinking of is, <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/catacombs.html" target="_blank">Christian catacombs in Rome</a> Skip down to the second article where the wand is mentioned. I saw a site with much more info somewhere, but can't seem to find it right now.

10-11-2002, 08:39 PM	#40
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	Thanks for the links Bible Humper.

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