Roma

I'm trying to find a source for something I read here once. It was discussing that contrary to the creationist argument that evolution is prohibited by the 2nd Law, it is actually supported or "encouraged" by it.
It was something about how nature always chooses the path of least resistance in matters of energy expenditure, for example in electricity. The thread or article I'm referring to said something about when molecules and atoms come together to form more complex things, less energy is required for them to "operate" (thus evolution is not only not prohibited by the 2nd Law, but it is "encouraged" by thermodynamics.)
I apologize for being so vague in this OP. As always, any help is appreciated.

-Roma

scigirl

Did you try talk origins yet:

Try this site for a few articles about the subject. Hope that helps,

scigirl

Peter Soderqvist

Entropy as disorder can be shown with a coffee cup!
The cup represent order when put on the table, and falls down with a put into the ground, its chemical bond breaks and heat is released and its bits scatter over the floor, that is disorder! Entropy increases in the same direction as time does, because none has seen a cup reassemble itself on the floor, jumping up to the table again. The primordial soup was bombarded (and still is in its present form) with high energetic low Entropy UV photons from the sun, and reradiated out to the atmosphere again, as high entropy, low energetic infrared photons!

Ludwig Boltzmann: "Gain in information is loss in entropy"
http://www.wellesley.edu/Chemistry/c...mo1.html#boltz

Soderqvist1: or conversely, loss of entropy in the primordial soup, has increased the probability to gain a proper configuration of A.T.C. and G known as the informational pattern of DNA. All natural energy sources on earth stems from high energetic photons, ordered energy for instance, food, oxygen, water, etc. its waste products is entropy. You sustain your order because of input of energy, and output of waste products! The broken cup has no chemical bond, nor any energy input, therefore disorder increase, but we have, therefore, we can sustain order in the body at the expense of an higher amount of increased disorder in the environment because of our waste products! This is a good link about information and evolution!

The Information Challenge By Richard Dawkins!
http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/dawkins1.htm

KC

We must also keep in mind, however, that order does not necessarily mean low entropy. A mixture of oil and water will spontaneously order itself into two layers (due to hydrophobic interactions), but the entropy is higher in this state than in the disordered mixture. Phospholipid bilayers, which are an integral part of cell membranes order themselves in the same way spontaneously. There may be many other instances where this is true in the cell as well.

KC

Non-praying Mantis

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but why would this be? Taken as one system, wouldn't the group of oil and water particles have fewer possible states that they could exist in when they were separated into layers?

NPM

PJPSYCO

If you have the money, or at least a friend who has one. You should get yourself a physical chemistry thermodynamics book. The equations, and experiments should be covered there.

KC

Yes, you are correct. Damn. I thought I was on to something.

KC

HRG

That's why for an isothermal system like a membrane it's not entropy that increases spontaneously, but free energy F = Energy - Temperature*Entropy which decreases spontaneously *). A membrane is not an isolated system.

The particles in the membrane may have less possible states, but a much lower energy, due to their mutual attraction.

*) For the specialists: I am aware of free enthalpy, but I wanted to keep things simple.

Regards,
HRG.

Non-praying Mantis

So a cell membrane would have higher entropy than a random mixture of phospholipids (the "oil" component of a membrane) and water?

That doesn't sound correct to me...

...but I could be wrong.

NPM

Nic Tamzek

The basic rule of thumb with the 2nd Law is to realize that the terms only mean something in terms of their precise mathematical physical definitions. They cannot safely be matched to common sense notions of "order" etc. If you try, you will soon be banging your head on the desk.

The t.o. FAQs are good, I recommend them.