DivineOb

I don't understand what people always use this "counterargument". The point BT is making is that the alleged witnesses to Jesus' alleged death and resurrection would have been uniquely able to know whether he really was resurrected. Any believers who came after his alleged ascension would not have the capacity to know for certain if Jesus died and was resurrected (since they would not witness the death and his alleged later appearances).

No muslims after the time of Muhammed (and I don't know how public he was with the few miracles he allegedly performed) would have the capacity to know whether he really was a prophet of the muslim god (or at least that he could perform miracles, which would certainly indicate that he was a prophet).

Jesus' original followers were members of a very small group of people who could actually have had the capacity to know whether he really did die and resurrect (notice I did not say that they did know, or that they certainly would have had the opportunity to etc etc, only that they could possibly maybe have seen that which proves / disproves their religion, which separates them from nearly all followers of nearly all religions).

Goliath

Brian63,

Quite right. My apologies. I should've said that what I found disgustingly arrogant about BreezinaTree's statement was not only that he believed that xianity was the best thing for every human on Earth, but that he would push his religious beliefs on others.

Hmmmmm....well, on one hand, from the viewpoints of each individual person on Earth, yes, getting a formal education would be beneficial. However, looking at it from a societal standpoint, I'm not so sure that this is the case.

Imagine a world where everyone either had, or was striving for, a PhD. Who would do the following jobs (which are, IMO, necessary for modern society to function):

Waiting and bussing tables at restaraunts.

Truck driving.

Sewer maintanance.

Burger-flipping at a fast food restaraunt.

Farming.

Dishwashing.

These are all jobs that require little or no formal education, but yet they are jobs that are very necessary for society to function.

So, in an ideal world, formal education for everyone would be great, but I'm not so sure that would be such a great idea in the real world.

Then again, this is probably a topic for another thread.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Goliath

DivineOb,

So? That does not mean that they didn't lie or weren't mistaken, now does it? Of course, while we're at it, BT's assertion doesn't even imply that said witnesses existed, now does it?

"Ah, but a true Muslim KNOWS that Muhammed performed miracles by the knowledge revealed in the Koran!"

Ah, how easy it is to play theist.

Sincerely,

Goliath

DivineOb

As I said, the early christians could *possibly* have known whether Jesus died and resurrected. I made no claims as to whether they really did know it or not, really did see it or not, were mistaken about it or not etc. I guess implicit in this statement is that a man named Jesus existed and that this Jesus had followers... I don't find that too large of an assumption.

MortalWombat

The problem is that none of the eyewitnesses wrote anything. All of the New Testament documents were written after Jesus death by people who were not eyewitnesses to him. They are all second or later hand accounts.

DivineOb

Why does this have anything to do with the eyewitnesses themselves? If someone wants to argue that the alleged accounts of the alleged eyewitnesses are embellished then they can go ahead, but to simply make a comparison between these alleged eyewitnesses and modern day believers is ridiculous.

Goliath

DivineOb

As Yoda would say:

"That is why you failed."

Sincerely,

Goliath

MortalWombat

In an earlier post you said:
[qoute]The point BT is making is that the alleged witnesses to Jesus' alleged death and resurrection would have been uniquely able to know whether he really was resurrected.[/quote]
The only accounts we have of Christian martyrs are from non-eyewitnesses decades or even centuries after the fact. The Christians who died for their religion were not eye-witnesses, just as the Muslims who died for their religion also weren't.

DivineOb

Then you should have objected to BT's argument by again referring to Jesus' existence, not with a comparison to modern day Muslims. If you want to argue that Jesus didn't exist, then that's fine... If you accept a teacher named Jesus existed, then the comparison between his followers and modern day believers is invalid.

Goliath

DivineOb,

I have never made such a claim, nor will I more than likely ever make such a claim.

Sincerely,

Goliath