Proxima Centauri

One thing I notice is that the problem is with the United Methodist Church. Methodists have a reputation for being liberal, tolerant Christians. You have been a Christian much more recently than I have and know better than I do how to relate to Christians.
You could consider explaining your problem to some liberal Methodist whom you trust. Tell this person that you do not want a divorce and do not want your children to become unsupported children in a single parent family or step children if your wife remarries. Ask what the Methodist Church can do to support your wife and your relationship. If counselling is suggested insist that you would like neutral counselling, i.e. counselling which is not specifically Christian.
I agree with the others, do everything reasonable to reassure your wife. Going to Church when you do not believe will have a cost. You will respect yourself less and your children will respect you less. This should not be more than a temporary measure.

HelenM

I don't agree with this. I would respect a person very highly who is willing to do something for the sake of his marriage that he wouldn't do otherwise. In fact I think most happily married people probably do that to some extent.

I think the problematic part is the implied 'don't tell anyone you don't believe!' - the implied 'I want you to live a lie'.

That won't work.

But - if x-xian is free to be honest about his lack of belief, at church, then I don't see why going to church - for his wife's sake - would mean he had to respect himself less or that his children would respect him less.

Maybe that's not realistic. It's something for x-xian to decide. The point I wanted to make is that I don't see any reason in theory why going to church has to mean a person must pretend to like or agree with everything that goes on there. (But as I said before, I think it's reasonable to expect a non-believing church attender to be civil and non-disruptive in their honesty)

What I agree ought to be temporary is if x-xian agrees to things that imply he shares his wife's beliefs. I don't think that's a fair solution, longer-term. But - in the short-term, if he's in somewhat of a crisis situation at times, well, I think people do what they need to to get through crises. I have more respect for someone who has the flexibility to respond according to the situation they find themselves in, than someone who says, for example, "Come what may - no matter how the rest of my family feels - or what else is going on - I have to stand up for my rights!"

take care
Helen

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

Rhea

My take on the "going to church for her" is a lot like my husband and dancing.

He hates dancing. It makes him uncomfortable. He thinks it's kind of stupid and pointless. It's not "him".

But.

He does it anyway because he knows I really enjoy it. (I tell him to consider it "foreplay", that seems to help).

So, x-xian, maybe you can stomach it by considering it "foreplay"?

Vicar Philip

It looks like we'll be going to church tomorrow. It is the church our former pastor moved to two years ago. I have a lot of respect for him, as he resolved a dispute between my wife and I several years ago. He is a fair and honest man, I just hope he remains so after we meet with him.

My wife and I had some friends over for supper Wednesday night, and it came time to eat. My wife asked me to say grace, and I deflected the request to the kids, who said their standard "God our Father" prayer (sung to the tune of Frere Jacques). I didn't think much of it, but tonight she told me it really upset her, but she didn't mention it in the interest of peace. I thought that was a good sign.

I'd like to pose a question: I know that when I attend this church with my family, my wife will expect me to take Holy Communion if it is offered. While I really have no need to partake in this silly ritual, it will greatly upset my wife if I don't. Should I just go ahead and fake it anyway, since a little bread and juice never hurt anyone? Too bad Methodists don't use wine, it might make it a little more intriguing.

Darren

pescifish

My vote is to do what you feel like at the moment.

Would it be feasible to ask her ahead of time what her preference is, if you truly don't care?

I stopped taking communion at Catholic mass around the time I realized I was agnostic, thought I have attended service many times since. I did this not for my own sake, but because I felt if I took the 'holy sacrament' without the belief, then I was disrespecting those who did believe.

Will she be offended if you do take it, knowing that you no longer believe?

Good luck tomorrow -- I'm glad it's the parish you prefer, too. !

Vicar Philip

Hi pescifish.

Your suggestion to ask her about it is probably a good idea. Although I just had a thought as I started to write this; appearances mean a lot to her. That's one thing about her that has always upset me.

As a high school student, my wife was rebellious, loud, and very independent. She acted as though nobody bothered her, and she feared noone or nothing. However, now that we're in our thirties, appearances mean a lot to her. I think another fear she has concerning my change in beliefs is the negativity typically attributed to atheists in this Christianized society. Good heavens, how will that make our family look?

I started another thread about Mormons elsewhere on this board, as my boss is one and very proud of it. To read about their origins and beliefs makes one's head shake; however, the beliefs held by mainstream Christians are not far removed from theirs! It just makes me incredulous how gullible and easily led most people are.

I certainly am not trying to portray myself as better than Christians, as my wife has accused me on occasion. Instead, I wish I could lift the despair of fearing hell from their minds. It seems so silly when you take a step back, but taking that step is impossible for some.

HelenM

I hope so. Some pastors seem to have learned good people skills through dealing with people on a full-time basis. I hope he's one of those.

This is something where it would have been good to have a plan ahead of time about who would say 'grace' - but it's hard to do that, of course, when it's a subject that's hard to discuss without at least one of you getting upset or angry. If you had agreed ahead of time to have the kids pray the friends would not have seen you defer to the kids - it would be less likely to be noticed by them that you were avoiding saying grace. Planning ahead means you know what to expect from one another. I don't think your wife should have asked you to say grace, knowing you don't believe! Had you discussed this ahead of time you could have firmly said 'no' in private without it having to happen in front of friends, which evidently bothered her.

This sure is a tricky one because depending on the way it's done, people most likely will see if you don't take it. If it's the 'pass bits of cracker and little cups across the aisles' kind then abstaining would be much less obvious than if it's the 'go up to the front' type.

What I don't understand is - the Bible strictly warns against taking communion 'in an unworthy manner'. So churches like mine say that communion is only for believers. They don't say that about anything else. So it's a little different from whether you sing or join in public readings of the Bible or whatever else they do at church. Here's the passage about communion, fyi:

<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1+Cor+11%3A20-33&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=6&y=11" target="_blank">1 Cor 11:20-33</a>

I'm surprised your wife is ok with you 'eating and drinking judgement on yourself' - no offense, but I wonder if she knows this passage? I know it's about conduct during communion, mainly, but it seems pretty clear that people who take it had better take it 'in a worthy manner' or else...

However, from your point of view, yes, it's just a ritual. You're free to participate or not. Maybe it's something you'll decide to 'phase out' gradually while your wife adjusts to your loss of faith.

Let us know how church goes...and thanks for the update!

Oh, about caring about appearances - there are definitely Bible passages saying we should care more about what God thinks than what other people think (if you ask I'll look them up for you). I think you could make try making a case to your wife that God would want you to be honest and not pretending to be a Christian when you aren't. On a day when she's in a good mood, I mean...since it is going to push her out of her comfort zone, the idea of you being more open about your non-belief.

take care
Helen

Starspun

Take it, then act like you are choking to death.
Perhaps your wife will see this as a message from god, thus not making you take it anymore. If not, it would still be funny as hell.

Queen of Swords

LOL!

A cry of "it burns! it burns!" might also work with this routine.

Jagged

I don't have much respect for the church's beliefs anymore, but I would definately not take communion if I found myself attending a service (fat chance, but anyway...). When I was a Xian this "silly ritual" was always a deeply spiritual experience and as Helen pointed out, it is for believers only. It is metaphorically partaking of Christ's body and blood, and the act of doing it with other believers is meant to be a profound "bonding experience" for lack of a better term. Out of respect for those who do believe, I would not participate.

But if you are an atheist why would you want to? You pointed out that you don't pray? And communion is much more "serious" on the list of religious activities--I was in my late teens and had to make a statement before my congregation before I was allowed to participate.

I would not let your wife strongarm you into even going to church in the first place. But that is my opinion. It seems she is not being respectful of your beliefs, yet expecting you to respect hers. Of course she should not put you on the spot in front of others and ask you to pray!!