Freethought & Rationalism Archive

galiel · 10-25-2002, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wdog:
<strong>Saudi Arabia is what would happen in the US if the very extreme fundies controlled the government.
</strong>

Actually, and even more frighteningly, a much more accurate analog is Iran.

Incidentally, Iran is feared by all surrounding countries far more than Iraq is. Iran does not invade with troops. They send in fundamentalist agitators and foment unrest. They are doing this all over the region, including the former Muslim Soviet republics. IMO, they are the main influence behind the radicalization of the Pakistani people. Iran is the only country in the region, at least at the moment, that is seriously pursuing a vision of one world under Islam, and, in the short term, a Pax Persia that will unite all Islamic peoples under a single banner and the universal applicationt of Quranic law.

Just like the Reconstructionists here are working to install a Biblical theocracy in the U.S. and impose a Pax Amerikana on the Middle East.

Shudder.

Starspun · 10-26-2002, 05:27 AM

Quote:

I'm new to this site so first of all HELLO YOU LOT!

Howdy.

Quote:

Ok the question is basicly 'What do you know about Islam

Next to nothing.

Quote:

...and what do you think of the religion?

See above.

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As a system of morals is it 'backward' as a whole or does it include positive teachings?

Both. Ironically, all religions have this duality.

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Also do you think that it 'encourages' (?) terrorism?

Yes. Clerics of islam have called for jihad against various countries on numerous occassions.

Quote:

..and Is the 'war against terrorism' against the religion itself or only against the followers?

I'm hoping the war sticks to the religion. The followers are just as human as you or I.

Religious belief, in any form, is absurd. Religious belief that teaches violence in the name of a nonexistant god should be outlawed.

Good day

Sabine Grant · 10-26-2002, 06:03 AM

Hi Dreamer 87 : I was partialy raised in Morocco at a time when islamic instruction was still mandatory in the public schools. The present King Mohammed VI is far more progressist than his father Hassan II. My experience with muslims was a positive one in my childhood.

I have met both pacifist muslims and fundamentalist muslims. They both find inspiration in their holy book. On one side you have individuals who use Q'Ram for their personal agenda of violence and opression on the other, balanced individuals who simply practice their faith. We have the same model in christianity.

I think it is prudent to not label islam. The young King Abdulah of Jordan is also a very progressist leader who benefited from american education and will follow in the pacifying steps of Hussein.

The degree of extremism in islam has to do with the leaders and how they direct the believers.

Dreamer_87 · 10-27-2002, 09:08 AM

Hello again Dangin,

Quote:

To me the key is to increase education and information in the Muslim world. Newsweek ran an article in the last two years about internet access in the Middle East, and it easily averages below 10% of the population, and in countries like Iraq it was less than 1%.

Trust me, no one wants information and education to improve more than 'us moderates' (?). Internet access isn't the only criterion that education is to be judged by; keep in mind that, with the exception of Saudi Arabia and some of the Gulf states, most arabic countries are suffering from poverty, and in cases like Algeria war and internal terrorism, so I think it more rational to do a survey about the percentage of arabic children who can go to school and *aren't* working to support their families before they reach their teens rather than focus on the percentage of the population that has internet access.

Speaking of Iraq, the Iraqi population is suffering from economic sanctions that've made them rely totally on the rations given to them by Saddam (which is one of the reasons that some Iraqis oppose removing him, because they'd lose the financial support) so again it's irrational to compare their society with the super powers' standards when the circumstances of their lives differ so much from Western counterparts.

Back to the point; what does this have to do with Islam? You're implying that Islam and the conservative lifestyle are to blame; I ask, does it make any sense to blame the ideal of democracy or liberalism for the alarmingly large percentages of STDs and AIDS or the highest murder rate in the world (these all being problems the 'western world' suffer from currently, especially America) *without* explaining how democracy has affected the population negatively? Is being able to vote and choose your own leader, the most important advantage given by this political system, causing all these troubles?

[I'm a staunch proponent of democracy, and think that it would solve many problems the Middle East suffers from. I'd just like to point out what I see to be a flaw in the logic of your argument, which I understand to be 'If ignorance and degrading treatment of women exist in the middle east then Islam and its teachings are the cause' (you make the claim without actually showing anything from the teachings themselves and assume that how the muslim world is today matches the teachings perfectly). If you're 'allowed' to make an argument like that but not support it with evidence, what's to stop the 'enemies' of democracy from claiming that it is anti-productive and not in the best interests of humanity when arguably even worse problems exist in the democracies of the world WITHOUT offering evidence showing that democracy as a factor negatively affects the people?]

Quote:

These facts speak to a need to modernize the islamic world, and fast. I have said some really tough things about islam, but the one thing that I haven't said is that even if the west destroyed the infrastructure of the middle east, and started true nation building there. We should not make Islam illegal, or try to curb its spread in anyway.

I'd go so far as to say that your 'Let's take over Mecca to stop the terrorists!' comments implied you believed the opposite; and Israel is enough of an example to make the Arabs distrust (and rightly so) western notions of 'nation building'.

Quote:

What we should do is force the children to attend 8 hours of real education, real science, real biology, real sexual education, real comparative literature, and even theological literature. They should be exposed to information about Islam that would carry a death sentence currently, (for no other reason than for being a logically sound critique), and they should be exposed to logic and philosophy. I think they teach math OK, but I'm not sure.

Which countries, specifically, are you talking about? Saudi Arabia (which is according to some forum members Islam at its worst) teaches every subject you mentioned in its schools (hell I should know I've studied there for almost a decade!!), the 'Islamic sciences' (Hadith, the Quran ect ect) included. The 'I think they teach math but I'm not sure' is, with all due respect, enough to make anyone perceive your POV of the middle east as purely subjective, at best well intentioned but uninformed, and at worst biased.

And I whole heartedly wish you'd share the logical critique of Islam

Gotta go
Looking forward to your posts!

Dreamer

Dreamer_87 · 10-27-2002, 09:41 AM

Hi Keith

welcome to the thread!

Quote:

Saying one is 'better' or 'worse' than another, at that point, seems like a waste of time.

I don't think anyone (with wdog as the exception) has done so; I just want to see a rational argument against the religion from its criticisers, and to find out how much is known about the religion, nothing more.

Thanks for stopping by!

Best Regards,
Dreamer

wdog · 10-28-2002, 05:48 AM

dreamer,

I don't need to understand islam inside and out in order to simply observe its effects.

I also think it is overly simplistic to say all religions are equal in the damage they do. Take the various sects of xtianity, the pentecostals are far more militant than say the methodists in how they attempt to propagate themselves. Some theists are content to simply believe and let others believe as they wish. Others however are bent on imposing their religion on the world through laws, attempts to undermine science, and sometimes violence. The fact that muslims insist that public policy be islamic law (sometimes with the threat of violence), and that a lot of those laws are very backwards and intolerant makes this the most dangerous major religion.

Amen-Moses · 10-28-2002, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wdog:
The fact that muslims insist that public policy be islamic law (sometimes with the threat of violence), and that a lot of those laws are very backwards and intolerant makes this the most dangerous major religion.

Strangely enough this is exactly the same argument I've heard from Muslim friends when they complain about my culture. You see from their perspective the laws of my culture are backward and intolerant because they are based on the same christian culture (or specifically the divine kings of said culture) that once invaded their culture in such a horrific manner.

When I point out that the laws are nowadays interpreted within a secular framework and many of the "king" laws (like death for poachers) are no longer applied they just point out that they operate in exactly the same way.

Just because some culture applies different standards than my own does not automagically mean that mine is the one at the top of the ladder, in fact it doesn't mean that there is even a ladder to be top of!

Amen-Moses

dangin · 10-28-2002, 07:07 AM

dreamer, I posted the internet stats as a guage of free information, not as a guage of education. I will grant that poverty would make it difficult to have internet access, but the control of information is a larger issue than simple poverty. And when the government controls the free access to information, then the government is certainly controlling the education curricula as well.

All those subjects being studied, and still the saudi born hijackers were awash in religious fervor. Granted you could easily find 20, or 20,000 people in the US who are equally ignorant of real science and philosophy because there is no room in their brains for anything but scripture. But the US born people filled their brains themselves, they were not institutionally led down this path by the education system of the country.

As I said in my first post here. Islam and the west must remain at odds as long as the view that Allah and the State are one remains. This is the root view that leads to the education problems (if you want to consider them a problem, I do). A government run under religious rule, cannot be just, cannot be equitable, and must exclude some of the people it is there to serve. This is not only islamic, but also christian, and any other faith.

You sound like the kind of muslim the world needs more of. When Islam is controled by those who aren't so easily threatened that they have to cut off the heads of those who say that Muhammed is not a prophet, and Allah is not god, Islam will be a better faith.

All evangelical faiths are terrible. The two big ones, Islam, and Christianity need to refocus so that the proponents of each realize that their faith works for them, and they have no right to even try to make others conform to it. Let alone engage in violence or threats of violence to bring people to worship the same almighty myth that they do.

Moderate Muslims need to stand up and become a force for change, but you can't. The death penalty for talking out against islam, or the conservative's view of islam will be visted upon you even faster than it would be on an infidel from the west. Don't you have a problem with that?

dangin · 10-28-2002, 07:13 AM

Dreamer:

What do you think of books by Ibn Warraq, and the history of Islam he presents. If you agree with him at all, you must be horrified by conservative islam.

How about the 6th and 7th century koranic texts found in the Yemeni mosque? They are different from modern versions of the Koran, and even the argument that written arabic has changed does not account for all the discrepencies within those texts. If the Koran is the unchanging word of Allah, then why the multiple versions?

And if you admit to multiple versions, and changes, then the Koran is not the unchangeable word of god. Then your religion is just another collection of writings by men, of men, and for men. Nothing godly about it at all.

I hope I do not offend you, I am much harsher in my criticisms of christianity, but granted, I'm still learning about islam.

KnightWhoSaysNi · 10-28-2002, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wdog:
<strong>Some theists are content to simply believe and let others believe as they wish. Others however are bent on imposing their religion on the world through laws, attempts to undermine science, and sometimes violence. The fact that muslims insist that public policy be islamic law (sometimes with the threat of violence), and that a lot of those laws are very backwards and intolerant makes this the most dangerous major religion.</strong>

I think we should keep in mind that Christianity has its own version of the Taliban, in the form of
<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/reconstr.htm" target="_blank">Christian Reconstructionism</a>.

Although they've had some influence in the religious right in the US, thankfully they are only fringe group within evangelical Christendom.

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10-26-2002, 06:03 AM	#23
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	Hi Dreamer 87 : I was partialy raised in Morocco at a time when islamic instruction was still mandatory in the public schools. The present King Mohammed VI is far more progressist than his father Hassan II. My experience with muslims was a positive one in my childhood. I have met both pacifist muslims and fundamentalist muslims. They both find inspiration in their holy book. On one side you have individuals who use Q'Ram for their personal agenda of violence and opression on the other, balanced individuals who simply practice their faith. We have the same model in christianity. I think it is prudent to not label islam. The young King Abdulah of Jordan is also a very progressist leader who benefited from american education and will follow in the pacifying steps of Hussein. The degree of extremism in islam has to do with the leaders and how they direct the believers.

10-28-2002, 05:48 AM	#26
wdog Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Ohio, USA Posts: 1,547	dreamer, I don't need to understand islam inside and out in order to simply observe its effects. I also think it is overly simplistic to say all religions are equal in the damage they do. Take the various sects of xtianity, the pentecostals are far more militant than say the methodists in how they attempt to propagate themselves. Some theists are content to simply believe and let others believe as they wish. Others however are bent on imposing their religion on the world through laws, attempts to undermine science, and sometimes violence. The fact that muslims insist that public policy be islamic law (sometimes with the threat of violence), and that a lot of those laws are very backwards and intolerant makes this the most dangerous major religion.

10-28-2002, 07:07 AM	#28
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	dreamer, I posted the internet stats as a guage of free information, not as a guage of education. I will grant that poverty would make it difficult to have internet access, but the control of information is a larger issue than simple poverty. And when the government controls the free access to information, then the government is certainly controlling the education curricula as well. All those subjects being studied, and still the saudi born hijackers were awash in religious fervor. Granted you could easily find 20, or 20,000 people in the US who are equally ignorant of real science and philosophy because there is no room in their brains for anything but scripture. But the US born people filled their brains themselves, they were not institutionally led down this path by the education system of the country. As I said in my first post here. Islam and the west must remain at odds as long as the view that Allah and the State are one remains. This is the root view that leads to the education problems (if you want to consider them a problem, I do). A government run under religious rule, cannot be just, cannot be equitable, and must exclude some of the people it is there to serve. This is not only islamic, but also christian, and any other faith. You sound like the kind of muslim the world needs more of. When Islam is controled by those who aren't so easily threatened that they have to cut off the heads of those who say that Muhammed is not a prophet, and Allah is not god, Islam will be a better faith. All evangelical faiths are terrible. The two big ones, Islam, and Christianity need to refocus so that the proponents of each realize that their faith works for them, and they have no right to even try to make others conform to it. Let alone engage in violence or threats of violence to bring people to worship the same almighty myth that they do. Moderate Muslims need to stand up and become a force for change, but you can't. The death penalty for talking out against islam, or the conservative's view of islam will be visted upon you even faster than it would be on an infidel from the west. Don't you have a problem with that?

10-28-2002, 07:13 AM	#29
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	Dreamer: What do you think of books by Ibn Warraq, and the history of Islam he presents. If you agree with him at all, you must be horrified by conservative islam. How about the 6th and 7th century koranic texts found in the Yemeni mosque? They are different from modern versions of the Koran, and even the argument that written arabic has changed does not account for all the discrepencies within those texts. If the Koran is the unchanging word of Allah, then why the multiple versions? And if you admit to multiple versions, and changes, then the Koran is not the unchangeable word of god. Then your religion is just another collection of writings by men, of men, and for men. Nothing godly about it at all. I hope I do not offend you, I am much harsher in my criticisms of christianity, but granted, I'm still learning about islam.

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