Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TC99 · 12-14-2002, 03:26 PM

I was reading remarks in another forum as well as the Absolute Truth thread here and it seems that when Truth is mentioned, someone always comments on Happiness.

So,
If humans could never know "Absolute Truth"--I'm not saying that we cannot--would Illusion for the sake of Happiness be acceptable?

Beoran · 12-14-2002, 03:58 PM

I have had many illusions for the sake of happiness. In the best case, I call them "fiction". In the worst case, "wild fantasies". As long as I cause no harm to others in having these illusions, I see no evil in them. Like all things, an illusion is a good servant but a bad master.

TC99 · 12-16-2002, 11:27 AM

Beoran,
On a larger scale...
If all of our beliefs and various faiths that we hold as humans were mere illusion, would they be justified if the alternative were a desolate environment in which all of our achievements, helpfulness and good will meant nothing? Would a good portion human race as a whole become lethargic? Does knowledge kill action and therefore faith(s)--not necessarily religious-- enable action?

Oxymoron · 12-16-2002, 12:12 PM

The ability to use an illusion - or better, a DElusion - as an aid to happiness will depend very much on the specific delusion.

Before I yak on, can we establish a principle here? It's this: the external world is not simply a passive entity when it comes to beliefs, it is pseudo-active. By that, I basically mean that if you have a false belief, the world has a way of notifying you that you're off key.

Banal example: If I believe I can walk through walls. I try. Ouch! Bye-bye belief (hopefully!).

Complex example: If I believe the Earth is flat. I have to generate a whole bunch of excuses when someone says they've been round all the way. I find it increasingly hard to justify my belief as people mention eclipse shadows, being up in a plane, etc.

Social example: If I believe everyone hates me, I withdraw, so no-one talks to me, thus reinforcing my belief. However, another - and correct - interpretation is that I'm not being sociable, and the fact that no-one else talks to me is a Big Clue.

The crazier my belief, the more the world 'pushes back', reminding me that my belief is dumb. So the harder one has to work to counteract the dumbness. Usually, the more people that believe the dumbness, the easier it is to feel safety in numbers and ignore the little messages that reality sends us. But there's a lot of hard work going on behind those delusions; "happiness" never comes cheap...

Beoran · 12-17-2002, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TC99:
Beoran,
On a larger scale...
If all of our beliefs and various faiths that we hold as humans were mere illusion, would they be justified if the alternative were a desolate environment in which all of our achievements, helpfulness and good will meant nothing? Would a good portion human race as a whole become lethargic? Does knowledge kill action and therefore faith(s)--not necessarily religious-- enable action?

Wow, that's quite a large assumption you ask of me to make there. I must say I agree with Oxymoron here, treality has it's ways to make us know when we're having an illusion.

There are also degrees in illusion and error. Poroably, most any of my knowledge of reality is erroneous to a certain degree. However, most of my knowledge is correct enough to be useful. I know that I cannot walk through walls unless I use a special device, noor can I look through walls, unless I use another special device. Yeah, I'm talking about doors and windows here ^_~. So, that part of my thoughts that I know to be in accordance with reality on the sucfficient level to be useful I call knowledge. The ideas that are not useful and corresponding to reality I call fantasies. Illusions are simply fantasies I mistook for knowledge before I invesigated them.

Illusions can be fun, while they last. However, it is wise not to act upon them...

Pbeast · 12-17-2002, 05:46 PM

I would always prefer the truth (when there is such a thing) to an illusion. Isn't that a matter of self-respect? If I could not justify, for instance, Christianity, but pledged fidelity to it because I it is too awful to contemplate a world where its claims were not true, I could not respect myself. I am sickened by the polite or neccessary fictions approach taken by some believers- or non-believers that like that others have faith.
What if the truth makes you miserable? I say at least you have your self-respect. It is better than residing in some fantasy land.

Beoran · 12-17-2002, 11:44 PM

Well, as long as you know yourself that it is a fantasy, I see very little harm. Fantasies are the game of the mind. Without fantasy, our lives would be utterly dull and boring. All works of art, all works of fiction, are in essence the product of our fantasies and our imaginations. What a terrible world it would be if we had no fiction. Yeah, so maybe I'm a dreamer. But the true dreamer is the one who dreams of the impossible. ^_^

I care not how people think. I care but how they act, and to al esser extent how they speak. If you live a happy life and brings no harm to yourself and others, then I say, power to you. No matter how deep you might be caught in dreams, fantasies, illusions or delusions. What would give me the right to police other people's minds?

[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: Beoran ]

Oxymoron · 12-18-2002, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beoran:
What would give me the right to police other people's minds?

Their inability or refusal to police their own?

Sorry for the self-aggrandisement, but I wrote this a while back: <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=52&t=000394&p=" target="_blank">respect for beliefs</a>

I agree that people have a right to think and believe whatever they damn well like, but that doesn't mean they are devolved from the consequences of having those beliefs.

Beoran · 12-18-2002, 01:46 AM

Hmmm, well, this was a reply to a case of insanity, correct? If a person's ideas are severely damaging to themselves, and/or cause harmful behaviour towards others, then indeed, you can challenge those ideas. The insanity of that woman was damaging to herself and her brother, so he had the right to oppose it.

However, contrary to what you claimed in your reply, there are many ideas that are not ethically relevant with regards to behaviour. In fact, in my opinion, most people don't act from their ideas, but from their habits and former experience.

Of course, I understand why people want to contol other people's thoughts. It's the Will to Power at work, yet again. Yet I try to live by reciprcocity. "Don't do to another what you don't want another to do to you". I don't like other people messing with my mind. I don't mess with other people's minds. I expect others to refrain from messing with my mind. That's how it is for me.

Pbeast · 12-18-2002, 11:58 AM

I did not claim that you or I had the right to police anyone else's thoughts. Thankfully, we don't. My point was that people should aspire to more than using fantasies as a means to get by. To me, that is a fundamental matter of self-respect and one of things I find most apealling about my lack of faith.
I also think it does matter how people think.

12-14-2002, 03:26 PM	#1
TC99 New Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 2	illusion,happiness and truth I was reading remarks in another forum as well as the Absolute Truth thread here and it seems that when Truth is mentioned, someone always comments on Happiness. So, If humans could never know "Absolute Truth"--I'm not saying that we cannot--would Illusion for the sake of Happiness be acceptable?

12-17-2002, 11:44 PM	#7
Beoran Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 75	Well, as long as you know yourself that it is a fantasy, I see very little harm. Fantasies are the game of the mind. Without fantasy, our lives would be utterly dull and boring. All works of art, all works of fiction, are in essence the product of our fantasies and our imaginations. What a terrible world it would be if we had no fiction. Yeah, so maybe I'm a dreamer. But the true dreamer is the one who dreams of the impossible. ^_^ I care not how people think. I care but how they act, and to al esser extent how they speak. If you live a happy life and brings no harm to yourself and others, then I say, power to you. No matter how deep you might be caught in dreams, fantasies, illusions or delusions. What would give me the right to police other people's minds? [ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: Beoran ]</p>

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12-14-2002, 03:58 PM	#2
Beoran Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 75	I have had many illusions for the sake of happiness. In the best case, I call them "fiction". In the worst case, "wild fantasies". As long as I cause no harm to others in having these illusions, I see no evil in them. Like all things, an illusion is a good servant but a bad master.

12-16-2002, 11:27 AM	#3
TC99 New Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 2	Beoran, On a larger scale... If all of our beliefs and various faiths that we hold as humans were mere illusion, would they be justified if the alternative were a desolate environment in which all of our achievements, helpfulness and good will meant nothing? Would a good portion human race as a whole become lethargic? Does knowledge kill action and therefore faith(s)--not necessarily religious-- enable action?

12-16-2002, 12:12 PM	#4
Oxymoron Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: http://10.0.0.2/ Posts: 6,623	The ability to use an illusion - or better, a DElusion - as an aid to happiness will depend very much on the specific delusion. Before I yak on, can we establish a principle here? It's this: the external world is not simply a passive entity when it comes to beliefs, it is pseudo-active. By that, I basically mean that if you have a false belief, the world has a way of notifying you that you're off key. Banal example: If I believe I can walk through walls. I try. Ouch! Bye-bye belief (hopefully!). Complex example: If I believe the Earth is flat. I have to generate a whole bunch of excuses when someone says they've been round all the way. I find it increasingly hard to justify my belief as people mention eclipse shadows, being up in a plane, etc. Social example: If I believe everyone hates me, I withdraw, so no-one talks to me, thus reinforcing my belief. However, another - and correct - interpretation is that I'm not being sociable, and the fact that no-one else talks to me is a Big Clue. The crazier my belief, the more the world 'pushes back', reminding me that my belief is dumb. So the harder one has to work to counteract the dumbness. Usually, the more people that believe the dumbness, the easier it is to feel safety in numbers and ignore the little messages that reality sends us. But there's a lot of hard work going on behind those delusions; "happiness" never comes cheap...

12-17-2002, 05:46 PM	#6
Pbeast Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5	I would always prefer the truth (when there is such a thing) to an illusion. Isn't that a matter of self-respect? If I could not justify, for instance, Christianity, but pledged fidelity to it because I it is too awful to contemplate a world where its claims were not true, I could not respect myself. I am sickened by the polite or neccessary fictions approach taken by some believers- or non-believers that like that others have faith. What if the truth makes you miserable? I say at least you have your self-respect. It is better than residing in some fantasy land.

12-18-2002, 01:46 AM	#9
Beoran Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 75	Hmmm, well, this was a reply to a case of insanity, correct? If a person's ideas are severely damaging to themselves, and/or cause harmful behaviour towards others, then indeed, you can challenge those ideas. The insanity of that woman was damaging to herself and her brother, so he had the right to oppose it. However, contrary to what you claimed in your reply, there are many ideas that are not ethically relevant with regards to behaviour. In fact, in my opinion, most people don't act from their ideas, but from their habits and former experience. Of course, I understand why people want to contol other people's thoughts. It's the Will to Power at work, yet again. Yet I try to live by reciprcocity. "Don't do to another what you don't want another to do to you". I don't like other people messing with my mind. I don't mess with other people's minds. I expect others to refrain from messing with my mind. That's how it is for me.

12-18-2002, 11:58 AM	#10
Pbeast Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5	I did not claim that you or I had the right to police anyone else's thoughts. Thankfully, we don't. My point was that people should aspire to more than using fantasies as a means to get by. To me, that is a fundamental matter of self-respect and one of things I find most apealling about my lack of faith. I also think it does matter how people think.

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