Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bobzammel · 06-01-2003, 10:43 AM

According to some Fundamentalists, the word "Church" is in fact never used in the scriptures...the word "Ecclesia" is translated as Church, but "Ecclesia" actually means something like "Assembly/congregation of called-out ones"(How that all fits into one Greek word is a puzzle to me) . This kind of reflects the negative Christian attitude toward the world--since they are "Called out of it"-in a sense, becoming a seperatist cult, which I believe was the aim of early Christianity, but continual compromise wound up with the "institution" of the "Church", or "Body of Christians" as oppossed to "assembly of called-out ones". However this sort of contradicts commands in the NT to be obedient to the governing authorities...

Any thoughts? Or am I or the Fundamentalists misinterpating this?

emotional · 06-01-2003, 01:15 PM

The Greek word εκκλεσια means "assembly", nothing more. It is the translation of the Hebrew word k'neseth, from the root K-N-S, "to fold in, to assemble".

("Church", by the way, has a different etymology. It comes from the Greek kyriakon, abbreviation of kyriakon domos, meaning "house of the Lord")

Bobzammel · 06-01-2003, 01:19 PM

So where are the fundamentalists getting all this "Called out" stuff?

Kalvan · 06-01-2003, 02:18 PM

kaleo is the Gk verb meaning "I call" and a klesis (which is derived from kaleo) is a legal summons. The "ek" in ekklesia is the same as the English prefix "ex-" (out). So ekklesia is essentially an official calling out of the citizens to an assembly. IOW, "come out here to the assembly area" made into a noun, thus an assembly or, to give it a modern word with a religious overtone, a congregation. Now there is also a verb, ekkleio, which means "to exclude from" a thing. I don't see that they're related because ekklesia is spelled with an eta after the lambda while this is spelled with an epsilon iota, but they look similar and sound similar, so maybe there is some confusion because someone took them to be related words. The verb form of ekklesia is ekklesiazo.

Bobzammel · 06-01-2003, 02:22 PM

So how would say, Jesus's speech to Peter about giving him being the "Rock of the church" read literally? Should it be "On this rock I will build my assembly of the called-out ones?"
Also, how can Christians be sure of the "Literal truth" of the bible when they can't get their own translations sorted out?

Peter Kirby · 06-01-2003, 03:19 PM

Bobzammel, what is the actual and literal meaning of the English word "church" to you?

best,
Peter Kirby

Bobzammel · 06-01-2003, 03:35 PM

To me--An assembly of Christians, in which case it appears the word "Ecclesia" would fit.
The main beef some fundamentalist Christians have with "Ecclesia" being defined Church is that the "Church", to them meaning a sort of temple, which a decent amount of Churches honestly appear to be. It seems they may not be protesting the word as much as it's association with the "Man-made rituals" they despise...

Kalvan · 06-01-2003, 06:58 PM

Quote:

So how would say, Jesus's speech to Peter about giving him being the "Rock of the church" read literally? Should it be "On this rock I will build my assembly of the called-out ones?"

Actually that's a rather interesting passage because Peter's name (petros, "stone", something the warriors in the Iliad could pick up) is not the same as the other word, (petra, a mass of rock, like a ledge or shelf of of rock, or rocky peak or ridge).

Matthew 16:18 is the passage I think you mean. Literally: KAH-go (and I) deh (but) soi (to you) LEH-go (am saying) HOH-tee (that) su (you) eh-ee (are) PEH-tros (Peter), kai (and) eh-PEE (upon) TOW(rhymes w/cow)-tee (this) tee (the) PEH-tra (mass of rock) oi-koh-doh-MAY-so (I will build) mou (of me) teen (the) ek-kleh-SEE-an (assembly/congregation)...

Quote:

Also, how can Christians be sure of the "Literal truth" of the bible when they can't get their own translations sorted out?

Not my department.

You should also know that for the people who wrote the four Gospels, Greek was not necessarily their native language. IOW they are essentially translating the words into Greek from Aramaic, oh, and writing it down some 60 years after the supposed events took place.

06-01-2003, 10:43 AM	#1
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	The word "Church" According to some Fundamentalists, the word "Church" is in fact never used in the scriptures...the word "Ecclesia" is translated as Church, but "Ecclesia" actually means something like "Assembly/congregation of called-out ones"(How that all fits into one Greek word is a puzzle to me) . This kind of reflects the negative Christian attitude toward the world--since they are "Called out of it"-in a sense, becoming a seperatist cult, which I believe was the aim of early Christianity, but continual compromise wound up with the "institution" of the "Church", or "Body of Christians" as oppossed to "assembly of called-out ones". However this sort of contradicts commands in the NT to be obedient to the governing authorities... Any thoughts? Or am I or the Fundamentalists misinterpating this?

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06-01-2003, 01:15 PM	#2
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	The Greek word εκκλεσια means "assembly", nothing more. It is the translation of the Hebrew word k'neseth, from the root K-N-S, "to fold in, to assemble". ("Church", by the way, has a different etymology. It comes from the Greek kyriakon, abbreviation of kyriakon domos, meaning "house of the Lord")

06-01-2003, 01:19 PM	#3
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	So where are the fundamentalists getting all this "Called out" stuff?

06-01-2003, 02:18 PM	#4
Kalvan Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: CO Posts: 65	kaleo is the Gk verb meaning "I call" and a klesis (which is derived from kaleo) is a legal summons. The "ek" in ekklesia is the same as the English prefix "ex-" (out). So ekklesia is essentially an official calling out of the citizens to an assembly. IOW, "come out here to the assembly area" made into a noun, thus an assembly or, to give it a modern word with a religious overtone, a congregation. Now there is also a verb, ekkleio, which means "to exclude from" a thing. I don't see that they're related because ekklesia is spelled with an eta after the lambda while this is spelled with an epsilon iota, but they look similar and sound similar, so maybe there is some confusion because someone took them to be related words. The verb form of ekklesia is ekklesiazo.

06-01-2003, 02:22 PM	#5
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	So how would say, Jesus's speech to Peter about giving him being the "Rock of the church" read literally? Should it be "On this rock I will build my assembly of the called-out ones?" Also, how can Christians be sure of the "Literal truth" of the bible when they can't get their own translations sorted out?

06-01-2003, 03:19 PM	#6
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Bobzammel, what is the actual and literal meaning of the English word "church" to you? best, Peter Kirby

06-01-2003, 03:35 PM	#7
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	To me--An assembly of Christians, in which case it appears the word "Ecclesia" would fit. The main beef some fundamentalist Christians have with "Ecclesia" being defined Church is that the "Church", to them meaning a sort of temple, which a decent amount of Churches honestly appear to be. It seems they may not be protesting the word as much as it's association with the "Man-made rituals" they despise...

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