Freethought & Rationalism Archive

christ-on-a-stick · 03-18-2003, 12:28 PM

Let's start fresh here, shall we?

On the "Jesus Loves the Little Children?" thread, Magus55 wrote:

Quote:

God doesn't make mistakes, you just love to blame him. Humans were created perfect, they disobeyed, they brought evil to the world, they corrupted it, they choose to not heed God's warning about Hell, Humans are 100% to blame for whats happened to the world and why they get punished.

Which causes me to ask,

Quote:

If humans were created PERFECT, even with "free will" how could they make an IMPERFECT choice?

This is, in my opinion, a very elementary and important question that has never been answered adequately. I am very interested in hearing all theists' (who agree with Magus' sentiment here) response to my question.

Chad Docterman wrote Why the Christian God is Impossible some years ago and elaborates on this very subject. Excerpted from the article:

Quote:

But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and had the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans.

The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot make itself imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

<snipped related points on "Free Will">

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

Theists, how do you respond to this? I look forward to your thoughts.

Lauri

Spaz · 03-18-2003, 01:11 PM

Yeah, I'd like to hear an answer too, because it makes absolutely no sense. Something perfect couldn't have "free will" in the first place because something perfect would be limited only to a perfect decision, because there's no "this perfect" and "that perfect" it's universal. Any theist have an answer?

Rhea · 03-18-2003, 01:17 PM

God is Perfect�
Humans are PerfectLite� 1/3 less perfect but made from the same great Perfect you're used to seeing.

Spaz · 03-18-2003, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhea
God is Perfect�
Humans are PerfectLite� 1/3 less perfect but made from the same great Perfect you're used to seeing.

:notworthy

Another thing I wonder about the whole adam and eve is if there was no sin before they disobeyed god, then disobeying god isn't a sin eh?

Ab_Normal · 03-18-2003, 01:19 PM

I'm posting this here because I didn't want to derail the other thread. (sorry, c-o-a-s, I'm a bad person)

Shouldn't the tree of the knowledge of good and evil be considered an attractive nuisance? If I have a pool in my yard and no fence around it, I can be held responsible if the neighborhood kids jump in and drown. But somehow the entity responsible for creating the entire universe can put a big ol' booby trap in the middle of it's purported paradise, and the patsies get the blame for it? And this is the creature that is supposed to define what is good and just? Oy.

christ-on-a-stick · 03-18-2003, 01:20 PM

ROFL Rhea. Classic!

Further to what spaz just said - if Adam & Eve didn't have knowledge of good and evil before eating of the fruit, how could they know it was "evil" to disobey?

Wait, wait, no, that's a whole 'nother thread.

christ-on-a-stick · 03-18-2003, 01:22 PM

Hi Ab_Normal, looks like we just crossposted. Excellent point!

Shall we start another thread? All these questions deserve their due focus without unintentional derailment, I think....

Ab_Normal · 03-18-2003, 01:51 PM

I dunno - I've pretty much "blown my wad" on this topic.

Arikay · 03-18-2003, 02:00 PM

Yep, Ive had this conversation on a christian board. Except for a couple answers, the only answers I got were people who didnt understand the question and just repeated what scripture said, over and over again.

It would be like me telling a puppy not to chew my shoes. Then leave and come back and I see the puppy has chewed my shoes, so I kick the puppy for disobeying me.

Besides, If god is "all Knowing" then he knew Adam and Eve would eat the fruit and he just pretended not to know.
so he knowing let man bring sin on his world. He then killed everything (using the flood) because he was mad at sin coming into the world.

Sounds like someone who is rather scary to me.

lpetrich · 03-18-2003, 02:31 PM

I am a creator.

More specifically, a creator of computer programs.

And though I am far from being either omnipotent or omniscient, I do try to make my programs behave. And I do so by designing them to have the intended behavior, though part of that design process may involve experimentation and trial-and-error. But I don't let a program misbehave if I can reasonably avoid doing so.

As to the free-will counterargument, I note that Jesus Christ had taught that one ought to remove body parts that cause one to commit sins. So if free will causes one to commit sins, then it is best to be without free will.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-18-2003, 01:11 PM	#2
Spaz Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 6th Circle of Hell Posts: 1,093	Yeah, I'd like to hear an answer too, because it makes absolutely no sense. Something perfect couldn't have "free will" in the first place because something perfect would be limited only to a perfect decision, because there's no "this perfect" and "that perfect" it's universal. Any theist have an answer?

03-18-2003, 01:17 PM	#3
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	God is Perfect� Humans are PerfectLite� 1/3 less perfect but made from the same great Perfect you're used to seeing.

03-18-2003, 01:19 PM	#5
Ab_Normal Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,842	I'm posting this here because I didn't want to derail the other thread. (sorry, c-o-a-s, I'm a bad person) Shouldn't the tree of the knowledge of good and evil be considered an attractive nuisance? If I have a pool in my yard and no fence around it, I can be held responsible if the neighborhood kids jump in and drown. But somehow the entity responsible for creating the entire universe can put a big ol' booby trap in the middle of it's purported paradise, and the patsies get the blame for it? And this is the creature that is supposed to define what is good and just? Oy.

03-18-2003, 01:20 PM	#6
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	ROFL Rhea. Classic! Further to what spaz just said - if Adam & Eve didn't have knowledge of good and evil before eating of the fruit, how could they know it was "evil" to disobey? Wait, wait, no, that's a whole 'nother thread.

03-18-2003, 01:22 PM	#7
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Hi Ab_Normal, looks like we just crossposted. Excellent point! Shall we start another thread? All these questions deserve their due focus without unintentional derailment, I think....

03-18-2003, 01:51 PM	#8
Ab_Normal Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,842	I dunno - I've pretty much "blown my wad" on this topic.

03-18-2003, 02:00 PM	#9
Arikay Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ca, Usa Posts: 262	Yep, Ive had this conversation on a christian board. Except for a couple answers, the only answers I got were people who didnt understand the question and just repeated what scripture said, over and over again. It would be like me telling a puppy not to chew my shoes. Then leave and come back and I see the puppy has chewed my shoes, so I kick the puppy for disobeying me. Besides, If god is "all Knowing" then he knew Adam and Eve would eat the fruit and he just pretended not to know. so he knowing let man bring sin on his world. He then killed everything (using the flood) because he was mad at sin coming into the world. Sounds like someone who is rather scary to me.

03-18-2003, 02:31 PM	#10
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I am a creator. More specifically, a creator of computer programs. And though I am far from being either omnipotent or omniscient, I do try to make my programs behave. And I do so by designing them to have the intended behavior, though part of that design process may involve experimentation and trial-and-error. But I don't let a program misbehave if I can reasonably avoid doing so. As to the free-will counterargument, I note that Jesus Christ had taught that one ought to remove body parts that cause one to commit sins. So if free will causes one to commit sins, then it is best to be without free will.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.