Starspun

What is the relationship the church had with government? Did they co exist or did one rule the other?

Godless Dave

In which country?

Godless Dave

And which "church"? Of course there were no Christian churches 2000 years ago - I assume you're talking about the dominant religious structure in each particular country?

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Godless Dave ]</p>

Starspun

I'm attempting to explain to my mom why and how religion is used for control. Her view is that governments have always had control and religion was always secondary, even before the time of xianity.
I say religion was used by the varying kings and rulers to control their subjects, thus, one supported the other. But, I can't articulate my arguement without knowing the 'system.'
How about the 3 major powers of the time..whomever they were. How did religion and gov. interact?

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Starspun ]</p>

Tom Sawyer

In many ancient societies, the kings, etc, were either appointed by Gods or Gods themselves. The Pharohs, for example, were seen as Gods in the flesh who ascended into heaven to sit with the other Gods when they died (this story sound familiar?) This practice continued in a form with Christian governments, with kings being seen as ruling with divine blessing.

Also, if you look at most of the ancient religions, there is a heirarchy amongst the Gods. Zeus is on top, with the big Gods like Apollo and Posiden beneath him and lots of other little Gods beneath them. That sort of thing could easily have been used to justify the heirarchies among men and tell the small folk not to get to uppity and accept the place in life that the Gods had given them (ie the caste system in Hinduism).

Gods were created to help primitive men explain a world which they did not have the tools to understand. The people in charge of disseminating this information were the ones in power, therefore it makes sense to me that they'd use the stories about Gods to justify their positions in life as superior to those beneath them.

Starboy

Interesting question. Just based on simple observation I would like to postulate the following mechanisms that leads to a combination of church and state power.

1. Most religions require that their followers submit to a higher authority.

2. Over time many religions appoint proxies for this higher power on Earth.

3. This creates a concentration of influence. When the religion spreads to a large proportion of the population this influence can manifest itself as real power, since the proxies can now draw on a large population of people who will follow an edict to oppose those that do not agree with them.

4. Any despot who would wish to totally control a society that has a dominant religion would do well to control the proxy.

5. Any proxy who would wish to do well for their religion would want to control the despot.

6. And thus through the natural process of politics church and state become one.

If you are a member of the majority religion everything is peachy. If you are not, look out. I think this illustrates why it is so important to maintain the separation of church and state.

Starboy

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

Shake

The Japanese, up until this last century, believed that their emporer was of divine origin.