Rhea

only if you insist on being a literalist.


Well, of course I will continue to converse with people who believe intolerant things from time to time because I just can't figure out which short-circuit causes them to feel it is okay to treat other people that way, and I keep thinking that if I just keep asking I can find some kernal of logic that I missed before that makes the argument sound. It hasn't happened yet, but it might. I sometimes converse with racists and chauvanists, too, for the same reason. I just can't figure out how the whole "golden rule" thing escapes them. It's not that I'm trying to convert them, I'm just trying to understand how the Golden Rule seems not valuable to them.


It's like staring at an MC Escher drawing, in a way. You aren't trying to change it, you're just trying to figure out where exactly the point of non-reality splits the picture. Then you can walk away.

Rhea

I was just thinking this through and want to clarify:

I think you ARE being tolerant if you confine your talk to answering questions, regardless of what you embrace. In other words, your conversations are tolerant, even though your doctrine is not.

I think you are NOT being tolerant if you do not actively promote a secular society.

...

If that makes sense. A bigot can be tolerant if they never act on their bigotry. Because even though bigotry is intolerant, a person can act as a tolerant person if they do not manifest it.

Muffinstuffer

Thank you. I can accept your saying that the doctrine I claim to hold to is intolerant from the secular point of view, but I must admit that I was having a problem believing that I was being intolerant if someone asked ME about something and I simply answered in as objective a manner as possible.

Ronin

Again the doctrine is intolerant by definition, Muffinstuffer.

...and you are a representation of that doctrine.

Try not to fault anyone that holds you to your own doctrine...as objective as possible as you try to be.

Muffinstuffer

I can even accept your saying that. If you believe the Christian doctrine is intolerant, then it would follow that through association you believe I'm promoting an intolerant doctrine.

But if I go to great pains to not talk about it, if I ONLY answer objectively in conversations, if I don't 'proselytize' to the best of my ability....am I still actively 'being' intolerant, or am I simply still the proponent of a doctrine held to be intolerant?

Rhea

In my opinion you are being tolerant and unchristian. LOL.

But that's my opinion.

Ronin

I have already expressed how high I esteem the value of your ability to re-assess your views.

I speak only of the doctrine you hold...and refute any claims you may make on any topic to which I may disagree.

Christianity just happens to be the one we discuss here in the GRD...find me in Media ~ let's talk X-men...find me in Politics ~ let's talk law enforcement...etc.

Many of the otherwise friendly theists here become fixated...as if I am attacking them personally...forgetting the room that we are in.

It is my hope that our relationship does not corrode due to this misunderstanding.

Muffinstuffer

Well, you know what they say about opinions.

Hmm...so in that case, I can either be ridiculed for not following my religion to the letter, or I can be ridiculed for FOLLOWING my religion at all. Hmm....rock, hard place.

This being said, how would I manage to be tolerant AND Christian here? Is this even possible?

Muffinstuffer

Well, to be completely and totally honest, you could insult ME personally, and I would STILL always remain someone else's friend, once they decided to approach me as one as well. In other words, everything's cool.

I do have to say, though, that while I can understand people having problems with the doctrine I hold, it gets a bit old when I continually hear how intolerant/irrational/vengeful/stupid/insert adjective I am as a person. In other words, there's a difference between saying "I believe that the doctrine you hold is intolerant/irrational/etc." and saying "I believe YOU are intolerant/irrational/etc." and show little to no respect. I must say it has not happened TOO much here, but it's happened before. I do my best to not take offense when my beliefs/doctrine are attacked, but I DO when I am personally attacked just for holding them.

Ronin

Just be a good human, Muffinstuffer...I've seen you do it.