Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Samhain · 08-07-2002, 10:58 AM

Well, it would seem after Time Magazine's fairly large article on the Apocolypse, Newsweek has decided to take up the theistic sword and defend: <a href="http://www.msnbc.com/news/789252.asp?pne=msn&cp1=1" target="_blank">"Why Humans Need the Idea of Heaven."</a>

Of course, we see such stunning journalism such as...

Quote:

According to a NEWSWEEK Poll, 76 percent of Americans believe in heaven, and, of those, 71 percent think it’s an “actual place,” but after that, agreement breaks down.

but later, it is noted that:

Quote:

The urge for heaven is universal; we need (sic) it the way we need (sic) love.

Of course! I forgot that journalists know nothing about the little fallacy of begging the question, and it's quite obvious that evidence that our wonderful journalist provides herself doesn't really factor into the picture. I guess we'll just ignore that poll so we can assert that everyone is religious, or should be, nevermind those godless heathen atheists who don't believe.

We will, of course, also note that about 50% of the commentary in the article has been taken from children from the ages of 6 to 14. Absolutely stunning journalistic work!

Well, the following should blow some of the apologists out of the water...

Quote:

...the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims share some common ground. Heaven is the home of the one God, who is just and merciful, and at the end of life metes out rewards and punishments

Hmm...punishment?...Well...

Fucking nonsense, the whole article.

Ojuice5001 · 08-07-2002, 11:11 AM

What ticked me off was their article on the Pledge of Allegiance. Summarized, it said "Dr. Newdow is kind of a nut. But hey, the Constitution protects nuts like him." There was no attention given to evaluating the constitutional or other reasons why Newdow's views might actually be right--it just took it for granted that they are wrong.

Walter_Mitty · 08-07-2002, 11:20 AM

Quote:

And though they answer these questions in varying ways, the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims share some common ground. Heaven is the home of the one God, who is just and merciful, and at the end of life metes out rewards and punishments. Heaven is a perfect place, devoid of anger, lust, competition or anything like sin. In heaven, you live forever.

1) Funny because the Christians think that the Jews and Muslims are not going to the Christian heaven. Same for the Muslims regarding Christianity and the Jews.

2) One God? This lady really needs to review those three religions before making that assessment.

3) Curious, if Heaven (at least the Christian version) is a perfect place, why did Satan instigate a war? A war based on anger, lust, competition, and other emotions?

4) If this God is just and merciful, why create hell?

08-07-2002, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Lotz compares heaven to a dream home, one that is safe, that’s all paid for, that shelters your loved ones. In Lotz’s heaven, God is the head of the house, the kind father who leaves the porch light on for the arrival of his beloved children. Lotz even gives the dimensions of heaven. It’s a cube, 1,500 miles on a side, "as large as the area from Canada to Mexico, and from the Atlantic Ocean to the Rockies. It could easily accommodate 20 billion residents, each having his or her own private 75-acre cube or room or mansion. This would still leave plenty of room for streets, parks, and public buildings."

What a bunch of shit! How can a society that sent men to the moon still believe this primitive garbage?!? <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Quote:

On the West Bank and in Gaza, talk about heaven is as common as dust. In the Dahaishe refugee camp near Bethlehem, youngsters who have spent most of the past month indoors confined by the Israeli curfew are roaming the streets, waiting for tanks to rumble by so they can vent their anger with stones. They talk about being martyrs the way other children talk about being doctors or firemen. "Everyone here wants to be a shahid [martyr], everyone has a friend who died and went to heaven," says Salem, a genial 10-year-old. "Everything I could wish for is in paradise," says Abdullah, who is 13. "I would have green gardens and fresh fruit trees and we would have freedom. Not like here."

If our species is to survive on this planet, these kinds of superstitious beliefs are going to have to be eradicated. Period.

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]

rudolk · 08-07-2002, 12:11 PM

Quote:

And though they answer these questions in varying ways, the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims share some common ground. Heaven is the home of the one God, who is just and merciful, and at the end of life metes out rewards and punishments. Heaven is a perfect place, devoid of anger, lust, competition or anything like sin. In heaven, you live forever.

It's this kind of feelgood bullshit that gives theists their "justified" stance on the "under God" issue. They think that these words aren't exclusive and that, just like this slanted article, spirituality is something humans need to survive.

When bringing up the fact that (besides Atheists whose relevance many refuse to acknowledge) Hinduism and Buddhism is excluded by "under God", I've found that many (including my own family) feel that polytheism is an evolutionary step below monotheism. Can you believe that? Like believing in one sky fairy is more intelligent than believing in many. Christians have been taught time and time again that they're the most evolved forms, spiritually speaking, and that's entrenched them in their narrow-minded views. The fact that it's impossible to sit down and have an intelligent conversation with most of them makes it even more infuriating.

Samhain · 08-07-2002, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rudolk:


It's this kind of feelgood bullshit that gives theists their "justified" stance on the "under God" issue. They think that these words aren't exclusive and that, just like this slanted article, spirituality is something humans need to survive.

When bringing up the fact that (besides Atheists whose relevance many refuse to acknowledge) Hinduism and Buddhism is excluded by "under God", I've found that many (including my own family) feel that polytheism is an evolutionary step below monotheism. Can you believe that? Like believing in one sky fairy is more intelligent than believing in many. Christians have been taught time and time again that they're the most evolved forms, spiritually speaking, and that's entrenched them in their narrow-minded views. The fact that it's impossible to sit down and have an intelligent conversation with most of them makes it even more infuriating.

Well, I'm not sure, I may agree that it is, in fact, an evolutionary step above polytheism, but I think it is a socially determined evolutionary step, not scientifically determined. I do not think, however, that either of these is a "more evolved" or "higher" in any sense, but socially speaking there are reasons why polytheism has all but died in the world and why monotheistic religions now dominate. It all has to do with the god(s) of the gaps. When science and logic advance and explain more and more about the universe the god of the gaps becomes less prominent and loses more grasp on its followers. So, while it may not be more intelligent to believe in one sky-fairy instead of many, it is more understandable, when examining the process of socialization and macro-social history, why the trend would tend to move in this particular direction.

Abacus · 08-07-2002, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Lotz compares heaven to a dream home, one that is safe, that�s all paid for, that shelters your loved ones. In Lotz�s heaven, God is the head of the house, the kind father who leaves the porch light on for the arrival of his beloved children. Lotz even gives the dimensions of heaven. It�s a cube, 1,500 miles on a side, "as large as the area from Canada to Mexico, and from the Atlantic Ocean to the Rockies. It could easily accommodate 20 billion residents, each having his or her own private 75-acre cube or room or mansion. This would still leave plenty of room for streets, parks, and public buildings."

So, I must ask, where is this cube? Out in space somewhere? If it was close, you would think that the astronomers would have spotted it by now.

I also would also ask, are the residents allowed to procreate? And if so, what happens when the population reaches the 20 billion number? Does that mean no more people are allowed in?

Samhain · 08-07-2002, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abacus:


So, I must ask, where is this cube? Out in space somewhere? If it was close, you would think that the astronomers would have spotted it by now.

I also would also ask, are the residents allowed to procreate? And if so, what happens when the population reaches the 20 billion number? Does that mean no more people are allowed in?

And now, for the 20 thousand dollar question, why is this "heaven" necessary?

Mageth · 08-07-2002, 01:13 PM

So, I must ask, where is this cube?

It's INVISIBLE, doncha know! Duh...

Abacus · 08-07-2002, 02:53 PM

Maybe Heaven is a Borg cube.

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08-07-2002, 11:11 AM	#2
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	What ticked me off was their article on the Pledge of Allegiance. Summarized, it said "Dr. Newdow is kind of a nut. But hey, the Constitution protects nuts like him." There was no attention given to evaluating the constitutional or other reasons why Newdow's views might actually be right--it just took it for granted that they are wrong.

08-07-2002, 01:13 PM	#9
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	So, I must ask, where is this cube? It's INVISIBLE, doncha know! Duh...

08-07-2002, 02:53 PM	#10
Abacus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South Dakota Posts: 2,214	Maybe Heaven is a Borg cube.

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