Freethought & Rationalism Archive

strubenuff · 07-19-2002, 04:30 PM

Forgive me if a similiar post has already been posted; I haven't been to these forums in months and I'm unaware of how to search previous posts. My question is whether or not predestination actually exists. This is not Calvanism. I'm referring to a completely scientific standpoint...the ultimate realization of the law of causality. Are universe is made of particles (or waves, whose probablity functions collapse and appear to be particles) which follow strict natural laws. If it were possible to understand all factors on all particles at any given time, it would be possible to predict the very next moment in time exactly, and so on. The only holes I've heard of are uncertainty on the quantum level, and Hawking's proposed loss of information in a black hole. I, as of yet, fail to see how quantum uncertainty shoots this theory down; and I'm siding against Hawkings on his bet (perhaps I too will owe him an encyclopedia of his choice). In either case, I fail to see how the loss of inofrmation in the black hole violates the theory, the loss would have been predicted...perhaps someone can explain to me why my position is incorrect....or add validity to it.

John Page · 07-19-2002, 05:09 PM

Predestiny might be taken to imply that something is ordaining the future. IMO the causal universe is necessarily deterministic, which seems to be your theme.

Can "we" escape causality and attain "free will", IMO no but its a close call and there are plenty of past threads on this.

Cheers, John

tronvillain · 07-19-2002, 05:15 PM

Well, such a view depends on only one state of the world following from a previous state of the world, and quantum uncertainty could mean that this is not the case. It could be that the explanation for the world being in state X6 is that it was previously in state Y3, but that previously being in state Y3 would also be the explantion if the world was in state X1, X2, X3, X4, or X5.

Shadowy Man · 07-19-2002, 08:11 PM

I would think that if quantum uncertainty is real (and not hidden variables), which it appears to be, then you can pretty much throw absolute determinism out the window. Determinism will work for quite a while probably, on macroscopic levels, but after a while, all that quantum uncertainty will get in the way.

tronvillain · 07-19-2002, 08:59 PM

Yes, if it is real, then we are limited to probablistic determinism.

07-19-2002, 04:30 PM	#1
strubenuff Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: NY Posts: 96	Does Predestination Hold Merit? Forgive me if a similiar post has already been posted; I haven't been to these forums in months and I'm unaware of how to search previous posts. My question is whether or not predestination actually exists. This is not Calvanism. I'm referring to a completely scientific standpoint...the ultimate realization of the law of causality. Are universe is made of particles (or waves, whose probablity functions collapse and appear to be particles) which follow strict natural laws. If it were possible to understand all factors on all particles at any given time, it would be possible to predict the very next moment in time exactly, and so on. The only holes I've heard of are uncertainty on the quantum level, and Hawking's proposed loss of information in a black hole. I, as of yet, fail to see how quantum uncertainty shoots this theory down; and I'm siding against Hawkings on his bet (perhaps I too will owe him an encyclopedia of his choice). In either case, I fail to see how the loss of inofrmation in the black hole violates the theory, the loss would have been predicted...perhaps someone can explain to me why my position is incorrect....or add validity to it.

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07-19-2002, 05:09 PM	#2
John Page Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: US Posts: 5,495	Predestiny might be taken to imply that something is ordaining the future. IMO the causal universe is necessarily deterministic, which seems to be your theme. Can "we" escape causality and attain "free will", IMO no but its a close call and there are plenty of past threads on this. Cheers, John

07-19-2002, 05:15 PM	#3
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Well, such a view depends on only one state of the world following from a previous state of the world, and quantum uncertainty could mean that this is not the case. It could be that the explanation for the world being in state X6 is that it was previously in state Y3, but that previously being in state Y3 would also be the explantion if the world was in state X1, X2, X3, X4, or X5.

07-19-2002, 08:11 PM	#4
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	I would think that if quantum uncertainty is real (and not hidden variables), which it appears to be, then you can pretty much throw absolute determinism out the window. Determinism will work for quite a while probably, on macroscopic levels, but after a while, all that quantum uncertainty will get in the way.

07-19-2002, 08:59 PM	#5
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Yes, if it is real, then we are limited to probablistic determinism.

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