Athius

hinduwoman, wtf is all this garbage? What is that link that you posted? How about you post a link that shows exactly where in the Quran does it say that women are men's toys? I don't want to jump to any conclusions or judge you or anything but I'm guessing you're one of those extremist Hindus in India who treat Muslims like dirt. I have never heard such nonsense. Your link and info are from an unofficial and unreliable third person. Your site is not even owned by a Muslim. I got this from their information section:

"This site is owned by the Hyde Park Christian fellowship - an informal network of Christian researchers in the UK, whose primary interest is the academic study of all issues relevant to Islam and Christianity."

That is not a good place to research about and come to conclusion on such an issue. I honestly don't like Islam either but I dont' make up B.S. about it. Islam was made based on equality and peace, it would never downgrade women the way you said it. Yes I have already admitted that Islam ultimately gives less rights to women than men but never the way you said it. The person you quoted your info from has probably just interpreted what was written in Quran to make it as bad as possible, when did Muhammad say Women are toys? Can you even prove it? I don't buy a word you said, and please in future if you want to degrade the Quran, give links to actual Quran excerpts rather than some random Christian site.

MollyMac

OK. How do you reconcile this:

With this:

2:2.80 "..and call to witness two witnesses of your people: but if there be not two men, let there be a man and two women of those whom ye shall judge fit for witnesses: if the one of them shall make a mistake, the other may cause her to recollect."

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Sabine Grant

I deplore the effects some religions and cultures have had on the treatment of our gender. But personaly, I am tickled by the occasional benefits I may recieve from being a woman

Occasional benefits are no doubt quite nice and dandy, but IMO they do not make up for being told we will be "saved through childbearing", being denied the right to vote or to hold down jobs for which we are qualified, being denied control over our bodies, being required to submit to men, and being forced into a sweetly silent, subserviently passive mold which is then held up as the epitome of femininity.

HaysooChreesto!

UCE, thanks for the info. It's not often that we have the pleasure of hearing what a real ex-Muslim has to say. I look forward to your future posts in your former religion.

This question might sound kind of dumb, and it is a little sarcastic towards Islam; If a martyr gets 72 virgins when he dies and then has sex with them, does he get a fresh virgin every time he deflowers one? Or are they still considered "pure" because they belong to him and have never been with another man? Also, did these virgins exist on Earth at one time, or are they just simply divine creations willed into existence just for the martyr's pleasure?
Thanks.

Boro Nut

Oh yeah? Well me and my company are protecting this post now and we've enough food to last us months. Anyone so much as pisses in the moat gets his head blown off. You have been warned.

Boro Nut

ALL MY MEN - FOLLOW ME!! YO!!

River

About Virgin Mary

The Virgin Mary was a pious Muslim women who wore the hijab( the veil). The hijab is a symbol of Purity, Chastity and LIBERATION. Although it is not mandatory, it is the preferred exalted mode of life. Many modern feminists are also adopting the hijab. The hijab serves a protective function. It prevents objectification of the women's body. The hijab allows women to have full control over her body. It emphasizes one's inner beauty and worth.

BEHOLD! THE ANGELS SAID: "O MARY! GOD HATH CHOSEN THEE AND PURIFIED THEE- CHOSEN THEE ABOVE THE WOMEN OF ALL NATIONS." HOLY QURAN 3:42

"Chosen thee above the women of all nations." Such an honor is not to be found given to Mary even in the Christian Bible! The verse continue:

"O MARY! WORSHIP THY LORD DEVOUTLY: PROSTRATE THYSELF, AND BOW DOWN (IN PRAYER) WITH THOSE WHO BOW DOWN." HOLY QURAN 3:43

Mother Mary is mentioned more times in the Koran than in the New Testament.
In Islam Eve is not directly blamed . In fact the Koran states that Adam and Hawaa (Eve) were punished equally, forgiven equally and then raised together to an exalted position in the eyes of God. Pregnancy and Childbirth is a blessing in Islam( not a burden). One of God's titles is Rahman ( " The womb") . This indicates that He also has Motherly qualities. Islam is the first "religion" to give women full inheritance rights, the right to initiate divorce and also to keep her last name. Islam also allows women to participate actively in politics. The Prophet's wife Khadija was also his bussiness partner. Unfortunately today's Muslim countries are only nominally Islamic. They don't follow the true spirit of Islam.

River

Let me begin by stating that the word for "virgins" in the Quran does not necessarily implicate "intercourse". The Quran is written in classical Arabic. 90% of the verses are clear . However some verses are somewhat vague. However, Aramaic, and not Arabic can give us a closer understanding of the meaning of the Quran.


"the most fascinating book ever written on the language of the Koran, and if proved to be correct in its main thesis, probably the most important book ever written on the Koran. Christoph Luxenberg's book, Die Syro-Aramaische Lesart des Koran, available only in German, came out just over a year ago, but has already had an enthusiastic reception, particularly among those scholars with a knowledge of several Semitic languages at Princeton, Yale, Berlin, Potsdam, Erlangen, Aix-en-Provence, and the Oriental Institute in Beirut.

Luxenberg tries to show that many obscurities of the Koran disappear if we read certain words as being Syriac and not Arabic. We cannot go into the technical details of his methodology but it allows Luxenberg, to the probable horror of all Muslim males dreaming of sexual bliss in the Muslim hereafter, to conjure away the wide-eyed houris promised to the faithful in suras XLIV.54; LII.20, LV.72, and LVI.22. Luxenberg 's new analysis, leaning on the Hymns of Ephrem the Syrian, yields "white raisins" of "crystal clarity" rather than doe-eyed, and ever willing virgins - the houris. Luxenberg claims that the context makes it clear that it is food and drink that is being offerred, and not unsullied maidens or houris.

In Syriac, the word hur is a feminine plural adjective meaning white, with the word "raisin" understood implicitly. Similarly, the immortal, pearl-like ephebes or youths of suras such as LXXVI.19 are really a misreading of a Syriac expression meaning chilled raisins (or drinks) that the just will have the pleasure of tasting in contrast to the boiling drinks promised the unfaithful and damned.

As Luxenberg's work has only recently been published we must await its scholarly assessment before we can pass any judgements. But if his analysis is correct then suicide bombers, or rather prospective martyrs, would do well to abandon their culture of death, and instead concentrate on getting laid 72 times in this world, unless of course they would really prefer chilled or white raisins, according to their taste, in the next."

Unfortunately the Idea of a Beautiful, Sensual Paradise where both males and females will full appreciate sensuality and pleasure horrifies Christians. Christianity is a religion tha denies the natural sexuality of Priests, and also believes that Sexuality is only for Procreating. This is not necessarily the case with Islam.

River

-MollyMac

I do not really want to extrapolate upon your Orientalist-skewed materials but here is a website that addresses your much quoted claims. have fun.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/two_women.htm

Women and Man are equal in Islam. They serve complementary roles. Unfortunately this is often misconstrued as inferiority when in actuality it is equality. In some domains Women are far superior than males, without a doubt...and Islam recognizes this.

Shake

Neither does Xianity.

Most Xians will tell you their religion does the same.

Athius

Hey no problem, any time. About your question, it's very specific, and to tell you the truth I really don't know. I had converted out of Islam way before I could seek answers to all these details. Once I came to the conclusion that the whole conept of god, heaven/hell, creationism, etc. were all false I gave up on everything else. Once you know the main structure is flawed there is no point in checking the validity of little building blocks. I think River might be able to help you more on that. If you wanted me to guess from what I know, I'd say he probably gets to choose what he wants since in heaven you can do anything that you wish. I'm pretty sure the virgins are "divine creations" and were not once humans living on earth, most likely they'd be angels. Also I have heard some people get more priveleges than others meaning there are probably different levels in heaven. The prophets and martyrs probably get more "services" than regular "heaveners", but hey who really cares, it doesn't exist anyway, what's the point of interpreting myths, and fallacies so much.