Magus55

No they are talking about believers before the Judgement on the Earth ( Tribulation).

Magus55

No it isn't, its a biblical concept thats existed for 2000 years - not 100.

agnawstick

I had a conversation today with a fundy co-worker. I am frightened. This person belongs to one of the mega churches with 10,000 members. Dispensationalists the lot of them. They are actively trying to help the hawks in Israel derail the peace process. Because they believe revelation the way these whackjobs do, they truly believe there will be no rapture until the palestinians are driven out of Jerusulem and the Muslim shrine is torn to the ground and the Jewish temple is rebuilt in that very same spot.

These folks are pissed at the President. Making peace, even if it doesn't in the end last, is thwarting God and Jesus. Every second spent negotiating with the Palestinians is one second longer until the rapture. My co-worker was sharing how thrilled he was about the lake of fire that the non-believers were going to be tossed into. I was simply stunned.

This guy also feels of course that James was wrong, and you have to give no charity, do no good works, nothing whatsoever. You are covered by the blood of christ. Just say ya believe, and don't bother helping anybody. It's pointless. We are here for 1 instant, just tell the starving sick tired masses to believe, and keep all the wealth you want. These two doctrines are central to fundamentalism. It's mind boggling.

Magus55

So in other words, Jesus has already ruled over the Earth for 1000 years in a time of complete peace and serenity, Satan has been bound in the Lake of Fire, and the Antichrist has already risen and fallen, and all believers and those saved by Jesus are in Heaven with Him now and those of us on Earth now are living in what age? How could Jesus have judged the Earth - does the Earth look destroyed of sin to you?

Preterism certaintly is out there .

agnawstick

First, I don't really think you should be calling another belief "out there", but that is neither here or there.

Secondly, messianic jews are a small number. No offense to you, but when 1-1000th of 1% of jews or whatever number are messianic and that changes to 3-1000th of 1%... you could argue that you are tripling your numbers, but you are lying with statistics. It takes 5% of the vote in the Presidential election to automatically qualify for the next ballot as a political party. Should we not hold the messianic jews to that same standard? How about a lower standard... 40% of that low number. If just 1 in every 50 jews becomes messianic, than that is an indicator of a mass movement brewing, until then, one can always dream.

Mageth

No it isn't, its a biblical concept thats existed for 2000 years - not 100.

Why don't you do a little reading on Darby and Dispensationalism before you make such a statement? As far as that goes, why don't you go back and read my post a little better, where I say: "Rapture theology (as part of "Dispensationalism") so prevalent among Protestants today is largely the creation of John Nelson Darby." This is a true statement; the concept of the end times held by many if not most Protestants today can be directly traced to Darby.

BTW, your earlier posts:

When Christ takes all the believers with Him to Heaven, before He unleashes His judgement on the sinning world.

and

If Jesus already came in 70 a.d - how do you explain revelation, the rapture, the end times, judgement, etc. etc.? The Tribulation comes before Jesus sets foot on Earth the second time. if Jesus already did that, then did we just sleep through the judgement of the Earth?

are straight out of Darby's Dispensationalism. You're a Darbyist.

Why don't you try to learn a little bit about the sources of your beliefs?

EstherRose

Just because we believe it, doesn't mean we are plotting to derail the peace process nor do we take any pleasure in the fires of hell. I sure don't! I personally haven't done anything to help or hamper the peace process in any way. Nor have I done anything to help or hinder the rebuilding of the Jewish temple.

I believe the sacrifice by Jesus and my acceptance of him absolves me from sin. I believe I am not required to do any works for my salvation, however my love for God and humanity leads me to do acts of charity. True charity without any hope of reward or tax deduction benefit like some folks I personally know. (No one on this board so please don't think I am targeting my remarks to any of you.) If a Christian isn't doing charity, then they are not paying attention to the bible and what it tells us we should be doing.

agnawstick

If the muslims don't lose Jerusulem, no temple is built, and therefore no Jesus. Of course if you believe it has to happen, you want it to happen. There were 100,000 emails by fundamentalist christians to Bush to stop trying to do the peace process and instead let Israel have free reign.

You personally may not be working for this to happen, this does not mean it isn't happening. It is absolutely logical if you take revelation seriously. Any support for Palestinians is hindering God's final plan. If you believe it is God's plan for the temple to be rebuilt there, consequently, you want the palestinians evicted, and their mosque leveled. Let's at least use some intellectual honesty here.

Pat Robertson loaned out his $3,000,000 personal jet to Sharon when he was giving speeches in the US encouraging support from the evangelicals. I guess the blood diamond business is really going well for dear Pat.

My question to you is as follows: Does peace in the middle east thwart God's will? If Jerusulem and the Mosque is left in Muslim hands, isn't that doing the work of Satan? Satan, according to revelations is getting tossed in the fire as soon as the final sign is given. Satan therefore can only survive as long as the Palestinians control the area where the old Temple was, and it isn't being rebuilt.

Magus55

Wrong - according to Adherents.com - in 1998, there were over 1 million messianic Jews worldwide. In 98 it was reported as significantly increasing - so id say its a few million by now. There are 14 million Jews total in the world. Don't know where the heck you got your 3-1000th of 1% number, but Messianic Jews make up at least 1/6th of the Jewish population, if not closer to 25%. Its growing so much, that Israel acknowledged Messianic Judaism, which was forbidden before. So I think we can consider it a mass movement since its a much greater percentage than your 1 in 50.

winstonjen

Why don't you clear it up for us by telling us how many Jews there are worldwide?