ex-preacher

So Joshua, if studies found that the most productive, emotionally stable, militarily agressive folks were Mormon, would you support having a Mormon-only chaplaincy?

Rev. Joshua

ex - I would question the studies, but as long as the use of their services was still voluntary and they met the standards of the Association of Professional Chaplains I would understand the decision.

Since a professional chaplain's training is independent of denomination, and since the skillset is not denomination-specific; I wouldn't care what faith tradition a Chaplain (or one of my supervisors) came from as long as they followed the professional guidelines.

Joshua

Rich Brown

Rev Joshua said:
This almost seems to open the door for an atheist "chaplain"! Of course, the chaplaincy is only open to "faith groups" and not secular ones.

The point is that the government shouldn't have any chaplains, including an atheistic one. The other points made on the thread about being needed to motivate in battle or for general morale are valid, but let those denominations (and not the government) supply pastors, churches, radio broadcast, fliers, (and yes, even Chick Tracts) on their own.

Rich

Liquidrage

I was in the USAF from 97-2001

In basic at Lackland AFB we did have Wiccan and Buddhist services as an option to attend. As well as the traditional Xian services.
I went to the Buddhist since it was better then staying in the bay.
About half way through I learned that at the Wiccan cerimony they gave out cookies and juice and let us nap through it I started going to Wiccan.

My dogs tags did say Atheist on them though.

Rev. Joshua

Rich,

An atheist couldn't be a chaplain because the one belief that is common to all chaplains is that there is a spiritual, transcendant aspect to life that can be studied and to which people can respond. An agnostic could be a chaplain (in fact I can think of a few who qualify), but an atheist could not.

Regarding eliminating the chaplaincy, it does not violate the establishment clause since all faith communities have equal access, and atheists are free not to participate (although free cookies and a chance to nap are real plusses when you are in Basic Training. The things I would have done for a Snickers bar...).

The primary reaon that Volunteer clergy cannot fulfill the chaplain's role is that chaplains are trained soldiers/sailors/airmen. Wherever the troops go, they go.

Joshua

2tadpoles

If you're thinking of only shore-duty military personnel, you're correct. However, Naval personnel (and Marines, too) often spend months on (or in) a hunk of metal floating around on the ocean. No civilian churches for them out there. My husband would spend weeks at a time living out in the woods with the Marine unit he was assigned to. If anyone out there wanted spiritual assistance or services, who would provide it if not the military chaplain? Going to a civilian church is not always something a military member can do. If one is on 24-hour duty, or on restriction, he or she can't even leave the base.

Also, in wartime I doubt many servicemembers are able to get all dressed up and venture out in town to go to church.

The military uses tax dollars for all sorts of programs and services to boost morale and keep families intact. Since some people don't ever marry or have children, should we eliminate Family Services, too? And what about DoD schools? Every base I've been to has had civilian schools nearby.

Dark Jedi

A while back, I was reused the option to put atheist on my dogtags. I pushed it, and even brought the base chaplain in on it. He sided with me. However, my CO was a fundy, and he refused that option. He was going to go so far as assign me to counseling for my mental illness, but the chaplain flat refused to allow it. He threatened to raise one hell of a stink if it was even brought up again. The chaplains can, and usually are, on your side. It's the established power base that you have to overcome.

I tried the equal opportunity officer, and found him to be a fundamentalist black Muslim, and very much not interested in any issues that did not involve race. He told me that I needed help, and should go see a chaplian for guidance. <sigh>.

I wound up with 'no preference' on my tags. I could have changed it later on, but decided it wasn't worth the effort. In retrospect, I should have raised hell, sought legal representation, etc. I just wasn't as militant (Ironically, since this was the Marines) at that time.

That experience was probably the start of my more aggressive approach to defending my rights. I realized that every right I refuse to fight for is one that I had no right ot have.

RufusAtticus

Well it does violate the establishment clause if the military doesn't offer atheist or secular counselors in the same capacity that it offers/recognizes chaplains.

~~RvFvS~~

Buffman

Rev. Joshua

(Just some personal thoughts on the following statement when considering Church-State separation in the military.)

An atheist couldn't be a chaplain because the one belief that is common to all chaplains is that there is a spiritual, transcendant aspect to life that can be studied and to which people can respond. An agnostic could be a chaplain (in fact I can think of a few who qualify), but an atheist could not.

Hmmmmmm? Exactly who is making the claim that an atheist, or anyone who does not believe in a supernatural world, can not believe that living things, especially humans, can have a vital principle, or animating force, within them? I don't mean to lauch into some sort of esoteric, philosophical, discussion analyzing the specific differences between life and death, but to rather capriciously insinuate that an atheist is unable to recognize and deal with that which we lable "spirit," does seem to be based on a religious cartel interpretation rather than on a critically honest one.

Essentially, atheists can, and do, have as much "spirit" as anyone else, but the cartel denies them the opportunity to have that spirit re-animated by a Government recognized and paid for "specialist." I wonder why? (Smile)

That is what is wrong with religious-government collusion and why the only fair and reasonable secular route is to separate the two. Military Chaplains, by their personal, though very often even handed, belief system continue to advance a belief in the supernatural. Atheists, believing in no afterlife, have proven to be just as brave and courageous as any of those who do believe in one. Are liberty and freedom exclusively the domain of the supernatural believers? I think not.

Transcendant can be examined through a myriad of philosophies, especially Kant's. It need not be the sole purview of the supernaturalists. Humans are capable of responding to all manner of stimuli...not merely those enshrined and jealously guarded by specific theists.

However, I am in favor of their being Chaplains in the military...but Chaplains for everyone who desires one and not just those under current government sponsorship. America is a pluralistic nation that is often called on to fight within multi-national forces. We like to believe that we have taken the best aspects of all nations and molded them into a synergistic fighting machine used to successfully defend our constitutional principles as an instrument of national policy... not merely someone's sacred text. Anything that could result in derailing, or incapacitating, that synergy deserves the utmost in our efforts at preventative maintenance.

Rev. Joshua

Buffman,

The chaplaincy corps in the military does recognize and represent the pluralism in the U.S. - and Chaplains are trained to encourage and foster that kind of pluralism.

There are plenty of of chaplains who are perfectly comfortable with, and trained in supporting, the kind of agnostic spirituality that you describe (I can think of one friend who's an Air Force Major and very capable in this regard). The only folks who could neither serve as Chaplains nor connect with the value of their services would be those who categorical deny the existence of a transcendant reality outside of what is represented by materialsim (in the philosophical - not the cultural - sense). Those folks are of course free not to use the Chaplain's services, and most Commanders should be familiar with the additional options available to them.

In my experience, people who fall into that category are even more rare in the military than they are in the general populace. Of my many good friends who are atheists, I can only think of one or two who might qualify and my guess is that the same would be true of the self-identified atheists in the military.

Joshua