Vicar Philip

I'll tell ya, folks, I really hadn't stopped and thought about just how unfair and irrational she is behaving until I thoroughly read Brighid's post (for the 8th time). I AM NOT A PEDOPHILE. I DON'T ABUSE HER OR MY KIDS. I HAVE A GOOD JOB WITH GOOD BENEFITS. WE HAVE A NICE HOUSE.

Sorry, I'll stop yelling now. I don't fuck around on her. I don't go to the bars every weekend. I don't sit on the couch watching football every Saturday. I do dishes. I cook. I do laundry. I take care of my kids.

And she dares to be a fuckin' DICTATOR and say, "You will think what I say because IT IS RIGHT!" Fuck that. I considered your plan, brett, but I don't think it'll work for me. I know that what I am standing up for, rational thought and the defense of the scientific method, is RIGHT. Her glazed-eyed "goddidit" has no place in my kids' education. She doesn't think evolution should be taught in school!! HA!!

She left for work right after I got home tonight, acting like she wanted to make up. I don't. I never resorted to calling her names, something so goddam childish it pisses me off. I think I'm going to give her the cold shoulder for a while, just a taste of what her life will be like if she pursues her little scheme.

Thank you so much, god, for all my blessings. :banghead:

admice

My heart goes out to you Darren.

I think, though, that some of you just don't get it. In regard to his marriage, it is NOT about who's right or wrong. It's not about what the Bible says, or the church says, or Darwinism says, or comparative morality. It's about meeting people where they are (not where they SHOULD be), finding out what's REALLY going on, how they feel and why, and trying to work with that. Leave the theological discussions out of it if you're trying to mend a marriage and re-form an intimate relationship. Plenty of other people and places to argue that. Attacking each others beliefs is not going to help.

She needs to know you are hurt by what she says. She needs to know what you are afraid of, what you want and love (I know you have told some of this to her. I commend you).

You need to know how she feels. "This is not the way it's supposed to be". What's causing that. How does that affect her? What is she thinking? Why are her beliefs so important to her? Why does she feel embarrased? Why is she afraid? What of? IS there a way you can talk to her to find out? There's a whole lot of communcating at the PERSONAL level that needs to happen.

I realize you have done a lot more effective communicating than your wife, and I know you are trying to work through your beliefs and reconcile hers to yours, but the only way to heal and bridge the gaps, as a couple, is to try to understand each other better. You still may not be able to reconcile your beliefs, but it's the starting point. Then you will each have to decide what you are willing to give up for those beliefs.

Again my recommendation for professional counseling to help; to teach skills and diffuse the situation, and understand where each of you is coming from and communicate it to the other through a neutral (relatively) party. That's why it doesn't really matter the theology of the counselor. A good one knows those skills and applies them, independently of his theistic beliefs. Some things are universal to healthy relationships independent of belief in God.

Even without professional counseling, you need to get to the place where each of you is calm enough to, and learns to talk to each other in more EFFECTIVE, healing ways.

Maybe you are past that point and have decided there is no more room for negotiation; that her beliefs (that you must believe in god) have to change for your marriage to work. If that's the case, state it clearly. Tell her why. Tell her what you want. Tell her you only want her acceptance. Then go from there.

Now the theological part: Yes, IF she follows her current beliefs (which are NOT based upon the dogma of United Methodism or the Bible), AND you hold to atheism, your beliefs and hers are incompatible. But it seems to me you still have a lot of communication about that to do. Then it's a choice for each of you.

I apologize for what sounds like criticism, and I have sympathy for what you are going thru, but I just keep seeing so much head bashing.

Take care and wishing you peace


Candace

HelenM

That's true but...maybe you haven't experienced depression like she does and maybe you don't know what it's like to be in the depths of despair that she's in. No, it's not your fault that she is in it (regardless of what she may say) but - it's not necessarily hers either. Not entirely, anyway.

So - be angry if you need to be angry but please bear in mind that if she has a depressive disorder it's not entirely her fault that she's behaving the way she's behaving.

I think one of the hardest things about this is seeing that you're both hurting each other a lot when you could really do with each other's support - you, Darren, would like to be appreciated for all you do for the family, I'm sure - and she needs some sort of help to get out of the emotional pit she's in.

Helen

seebs

Yes!

My wife and I used to have huge fights any time we discussed politics. We finally learned to leave this alone. Years later, once we had our relationship in order, we found that we could *enjoy* discussing politics. Why? Because now I know that, even when she attacks my views, she's not attacking *me*.

I didn't quote the rest of your post, but perhaps anyone having problems like this should read the rest of it again. Excellently stated.

Goliath

Vicar Philip,

Even after trying to run off the unsecular advice in this thread, I've tried to keep up with your situation. I'm sorry that your marriage situation has not improved.

When I saw that your wife threatened to divorce you unless your meeting with the pastor (which, IMO, is an extremely bad idea) changes you to a xian, I felt compelled to reiterate my initial advice that I gave on the first or second page of this thread: Divorce her immediately. Beat her to the punch! You don't have to take this crap from her day in and day out.

Sincerely,

Goliath

(edited to remove an exaggeration that could be too easily misconstrued as an inaccuracy)

agapeo

Ya know Vicar Philip maybe Goliath has a point. Why prolong your suffering when it can all be over in a matter of a few months of divorce proceedings. Then you're be able to get on with your life and do all the things you really want to do. Oops, but then there are the children, huh. Can't divorce them as well, can you? And if she gets custody, will you be able to work things out together whereby you children don't continue to suffer. Of course kids are resilent aren't they? They'll get over it, eventually, the same as you will after putting your foot down and beating "her to the punch."

Point is, is that getting a divorce isn't always the best solution, but it sure beats having to put up with her nonsence day after day; year after year; decade after decade . . . Of course there is always counseling. Oops that's right -- this thread is dealing with that as well. That is -- Why should you go to a Christian couselor when there are plenty of secular ones around? Well, perhaps one good reason is because your wife is willing to do so. Granted maybe she has some pie in the sky idea that by doing so it will cause you to see the errors of your ways. Boy, is she in for a rude awakening if that's what she thinks any Christian couselor worth his/her weight in salt is going to deal with. The whole point of marital counseling (Christian or secular) is to salvage a marriage if possible. If that wasn't the point of it then all the counselor would have to say is: "Get a divorce. That will be 50 bucks, please".

Oh for sure, there are some Christian counselors who will side with your wife by default. You can't be certain that they won't. At least not until you meet with them. But otoh, there are some secular counselors who aren't very good at salvaging marriages as well. But what the heck -- at least they're secular and that's what really counts, right?

Decisions, decisions, decisions. Oh the hell with it. Just do what good ole Goliath says ('cause surely he knows best) and divorce her.

See! That's not to hard to do, is it? Afterall, Goliath thinks so. Listen to him, for me thinks he surely must have years and years of dealing with these issues.

HelenM

I think you can trust the mods to intervene if the advice on here is bothering the original poster or is crossing the line into being inappropriately 'unsecular'. If you think they've missed something you can PM them.

Fwiw I've learned from your comments, to be more respectful of advice I don't agree with. I think all advice can be helpful because the original poster will find himself/herself reacting to it with "Yeah!" or "No way!" and that will help them in their own decision-making - I hope. Sometimes it's only when you see someone else say what had been in your mind that you realize it really is what you want - or don't want.

VP I have a lot of respect for you, for not rushing to a decision. I will continue to respect you whatever you choose. It's obvious how much pain this is causing you and I hope one way or another, that will lessen soon.

Helen

brighid

I think admice and Helen have made some very good points. I do think there is a middle ground, even though I believe your wife is being totally unreasonable and absolutely and destructively myopic in her “reasoning” and reactions.

I think when a person feels hurt, or perhaps in her case even betrayed they tend to focus so much on the perceived (or real) betrayal that they are unable to see the big picture, OR remember ALL of who you are. They start to attribute characteristics or deeds to you that you have never actually exhibited because they fit the model of what they feel happened.

Recently I had a friend of 15 years accuse of me some pretty bad things and treated me absolutely horribly all over a falsely perceived slight, one she allowed to fester and grow into something completely messed up. I was stunned, shocked and deeply hurt by her accusations, especially because in all the years we have known each other I have NEVER done anything even remotely like what she accused me of doing and it lead me to believe that something more was behind her harshly distorted reactions regarding this situation. I have my suspicions, but I doubt they will ever be truly confirmed regarding “why” she acted this way because she has been incapable of having an adult conversation. I am left completely baffled and I would also say that are relationship has been nearly irreparably harmed because of it.

One of the lessons I have learned in life is that when people react with such disproportional and paranoid hostility it speaks much more to who they are as people, then to who the people/person they are reacting to. She is vocalizing her own internal dialogue, self-doubt, self-loathing and how she would feel about herself if she lost her God belief. She is saying that she would “poison” the children’s minds and would be unable to be trusted if the situations were reversed and that her commitment to the marriage would end if she were in your shoes. Of course, she doesn’t realize that she is projecting her own feelings onto you in order to justify her hostility but I would wager that this is closer to the truth then some other plausible conclusions. I know that when I look at people’s reactions in this way it helps me to endure the situation and feel less attacked. It boils down to this having absolutely nothing to do with you and everything to do with her. I don’t feel confident that she is in a place to admit that.

You KNOW the truth about yourself. You know you are a good husband, provider and father. You love your wife and you love and adore your children. You have always been dedicated to your family and no matter what she says, or how she attempts to vilify your character YOU cannot be changed by false accusations. Stand by the truth of WHO you are, remain steadfast and calm. You aren’t dishonoring your moral position by deflecting her negative energy (so to speak) and you aren’t whimping out if you choose not to engage her in confrontation.

When I was going through all the legal hell with my son’s father, when he was trying to have my son taken from me on the grounds that I was physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually endangering my child, having DCFS investigate his “claims”, criminally abusing and attempting to brutalize and kill me, and bringing all sorts of other false accusations against me in a court of law, while I was grilled by his attorneys and had to sit across and arbitration table and endure his lies … THEE thing that saved me and my child was my unwavering adherence to the truth. He attempted to reel me into all sorts of confrontations and I simply learned to smile on the outside and IGNORE his taunts. I continued to do what was right and stand by my own self-worth, knowing full well who I was and court date, after court date, after all his different attorneys, different judges and different venues I prevailed. Don’t allow her to suck you in any further then you must go into this misery and destruction.

When she calls you evil, shrug your shoulders. When she accuses you of being whatever … say whatever and walk away. Don’t pay any credence to her accusations or provide fuel for her fire. Tend to your children as usual. Love them, hold them and reassure them doubly. Tell her you won’t speak with her if the conversation will end in an ultimatum or threat. Every time she does, take a walk, go to the store, or otherwise remove yourself from the situation.

Also, consult an attorney now. Hopefully you will not need it, but it is better to be educated and prepared then find yourself summoned to court by a sheriffs officer while enjoying the weekend paper.

Your wife may very well be suffering from a clinical or situational depression. She needs to seek professional and medical help to stabilize her thinking, but unfortunately you can only lead her to that Prozac infused water. Gently encourage her to seek some outside assistance, but prepare yourself for the worst.

Unfortunately, many people who are suffering from a mental health crisis won’t get help and living with their situation is almost impossible because it is very difficult to separate the disorder from the person.

Perhaps you can consider spending some time by a friends home, with a relative or simply retreating to some place to think that is NOT home. This may allow her some time to breathe and think, but it could also exasperate her feelings of impending doom.

As to the embarrassment issue: You are only this to her because she has chosen to publicly air your non-belief to the entire free world instead of keeping this matter of “faith” a personal one, as it should be. She is suffering the ill effects of her own actions. I don’t think it ‘s right for you to pretend or even lie about your disbelief within your immediate family. I think it is also VERY important that you sit down with your children and judiciously tell them what IS going on between you and their mother …

And if she still hasn’t come to her senses … send her my way for a good reconditioning

Always remember, and not matter what … you ARE a good man, a wonderful father and the type of husband so many women wished they had … and remember to act like you ARE that man.

Maybe even suggest (if Helen is willing) that your wife contact her privately so she can talk with another Christian woman, married to an atheist who has successfully navigated this situation to go to have a happy, healthy, loving marriage and family. I hope she can come to see that this is NOT the end of the world, you are still the same man (minus one belief) and that your marriage is worth saving.

Brighid

HelenM

I wouldn't mind at all, but I realize that would entail Darren admitting that he's talked about his marriage with strangers on the Internet...and his wife might be upset about that.

I'm hoping that there will be local Christians - the pastor, or others - who would share my perspective about the possibilities for a marriage to an atheist being not only survivable but a wonderful experience...not that I would recommend any Christian going into it deliberately (for reasons that I think this and other threads have made clear already), but if that's where a couple finds themselves down the road, I definitely don't see why divorce has to be the only option.

take care
Helen

Proxima Centauri

Apology accepted. As you say you are under stress. Its clear she knew you could overhear her. Its clear she wanted you to overhear her.