MrKrinkles

(note: edited Feb 11, changed "theists" to "Christians")

I hope this is the appropriate forum for this question.

Christians, your theology centers around this idea that there is some kind of alternative realm where people's consciousnesses are somehow transported when they die. Your theology proposes that Christian believers' consciousnesses go to an elevated plane of continuous joy and happiness, while unbelievers' consciousnesses are sent to some sort of pit of unending suffering, which has variously been described as a place of eternal fire, wailing, gnashing of teeth, etc.

My questions are these: How does human consciousness survive death? What form does it take? We are aware that consciousness exists in the human brain, a greyish or whitish convoluted organ occupying the cranium, but of course at death, this organ, like the rest of the body, stops functioning and tends to disperse into its component elements. So how, exactly, does individual human consciousness survive death? What, exactly, survives? Does our consciousnes turn into a gas of some kind? Do "we" get issued new bodies in heaven in order to feel joy and happiness, and do "we" get brand new bodies in hell-complete with exquisitely sensitive nerve endings-so that we can fully experience an eternity of pain and suffering? How are our consciousnesses transported to these new bodies? Or is there some other method employed to insure our continued consciousness? In other words, and again, in what form does our consciousness exist after death? If you use the term "spirit," be good enough to describe exactly, precisely what that is without resorting to the use of other questionable, ill-defined theological terminology, and specify what "real-world" evidence there is for such a thing as (a) "spirit."

Thank you in advance for your help in solving this puzzling mystery.

Brooks

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: MrKrinkles ]

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: MrKrinkles ]</p>

Tercel

Hi MrKrinkles,

I would have said my theology centers around God. But, belief in the afterlife certainly is a standard Christian doctrine.

Not necessarily, there are a number of verses in the Bible which I think suggest that heaven will not be soley occupied by believers nor hell soley occupied by unbelievers. But I believe heaven and hell exist, yes.

Interesting questions... but difficult to answer. What form does the consciousness take now? What is the essential part of consciousness?
Without definite knowledge of the answers to these questions it becomes difficult to speculate...

...well, we are aware that consciousness acts through the human brain... where it actually exists -if indeed it actually has a physical location of existence- is problematic.

I can think of two possibilities: One, God creates a new body with the same consciousness you had when you were alive; or Two, consciousness is not a soley material thing and can exist independent of the material body through which it acts. I believe the second.

I believe that everything we would call our "mind" survives. Since I believe it is non-material in existence, I don't think it needs to do or get turned into anything to survive after death.

The Bible would appear to teach that we do get new and better bodies in the afterlife.

Spirit sounds like a good word to me to describe it.
I'm not sure your demand for a precise definition or material evidence is well-founded. By "real-world" you obviously mean "the materialistic physical world". What type of evidence of a non-physical entity would you expect to find in the material world?
And if I'm going to describe it I'd have to do it in terms of the material world because that's all we are familar with.
Nethertheless I'll try, since you asked, and if you don't like my effort, you can perhaps still find some wisdom from the saying "Ask a stupid question...".

The “spirit” is, I believe, the realm of truth and of the mind. It is not a materialistic thing like the world we detect with our senses, so it is neither in one physical location or another: It is everywhere and nowhere. Think of logic itself. You cannot give it a physical location or a material existence. Yet it’s existence is equally real, perhaps more real, as anything in the physical world. To the realm of the spirit, belong I believe all the ideas and concepts that we consider. Is a sheet of writing nothing more than a bit of it arranged in a pretty pattern on a sheet of paper? No, when read by an intelligent reader, the reader should discern ideas and meaning.
The physical world, science tells us, is constructed of many many tiny wave/particles things all simply running like clockwork according to some basic mathematical equations: Simply particles and motion. Now in my books, particles + motion does not equal reasoning, ideas, meaning, truth or falsity, and self-awareness. This suggests that there is more to reality that what is physical and is perceived with the senses and can be examined scientifically. There is the realm of philosophy: The mind, rational thinking, logic and “truth”: The “spirit” realm, for lack of a better word.

Tercel

MrKrinkles

Tercel,

Thank you for responding to my questions.

Why is it problematic? What leads you to believe that consciousness exists anywhere but the brain?

Why do you believe this?

Cheers,

Brooks

matty j

Read a little into mind-body dualism. You'll find all the answers you need there.

The trouble here is that you're looking for soul through empirical means, i.e. what you can see and hear and taste, etc. I'm not critisizing you for this -- it's a good method, always -- but those believing in a 'soul', or some other external source of consciousness, don't associate consciousness with empirical things. You speak of the brain, and indeed consciousness, in purely physical terms, while the dualist would distinguish the mind (consciousness) from body (brain) right at the start, thereby eliminating the need to say one dies with the other at physical death. I'm not saying this view is correct, but it is a view which explains your little 'problem' without a great deal of struggle -- the answer is basically defined by the stance they're already taking.

And why's this addressed to theists in general? It's very clearly aimed specifically at Christianity, and as a Deist, I don't care for being lump in the same category.

Matty J

MrKrinkles

Matty,

I addressed my post the "theists" because I assumed most theists on these boards would be Christians. I am sorry if you feel slighted.

I am trying to determine what, specifically, they associate it with then. Usually I just get a convoluted mass of nonsensical words thrown at me when I ask this question. I am trying to see if theists, or those who believe in a "spritual realm," or those who believe in life after death, can explain, in any coherent way, consciousness apart from the brain.

Anyway, thanks for your reply.

Brooks

MrKrinkles

Oops.

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: MrKrinkles ]</p>

HRG

Of course, since it doesn't "exist" in the same sense as particles etc. do. It exists as patterns in our brains.

Just like a charge pattern in a RAM - when read by a sophisticated program, it makes pictures appear on a screen.
No, but some patterns of particles etc. are reasonings, ideas, meanings etc.

At least this is a PoV which cannot be refuted, IMHO.

Regards,
HRG.

wendroo

Think of logic itself. You cannot give it a physical location or a material existence. Yet it’s existence is equally real, perhaps more real, as anything in the physical world.

Whatever it is that is our "mind" or "spirit", is sentient. Logic is not sentient. Logic is merely the concept of an organized sequence that a mind is able to perceive. Logic and spirit may both be inorganic nonmaterial, but logic is not any more real than spirit. Maybe less so, because logic itself is not able to perceive -- it has no no energy.
Psyche, I think, is probably a better word than "mind". That would include both our conscious mind and our subconscious mind.
Our psyche has some form of energy, it is generally believed, but I am not so sure. If it is true that energy cannot be destroyed and just changes forms, then I really do wonder if our thoughts are actually a form of energy, organic or not. What happens to our thoughts, our psyche when we die? Does it change to a different form -- like maybe ghosts?? I really don't think so, that is just too ridiculously superstitious. But it is interesting to think about and wonder if there could be any real evidence of it that our subconscious psyche doesn't merely dream up and project as supernatural phenomena.
Anyway, point is that logic is not sentient, it is merely a concept that "exists" (as does any nonmaterial concept) in our sentience.
I think, therefore I am?!

Olorin

It has been scientifically shown that operations performed on the brain have resulted in changes to the patients mental functions. These changes include anything from mood swings to increased/decreased logical abilities, etc. Unfortunately I do not have any sources atm.

If you adhere to the belief that the conciousness is not part of the brain, or that the brain is not essential to the conciousness, how do you explain the direct influence caused by physical actions on the brain?

If you believe that the conciousness is not a concept, that it is an entity which operates through the brain functions, let's see the evidence.

Those people who are mentally challenged - is it that their "souls" are malfunctioning, or their brains? And infants, who die before forming the type of perception neccesary for theistic belief, what happens to their "souls"?

MrKrinkles

Wendroo,

You are comparing two unrelated items and trying to assign qualites to one by assuming it is the same as the other. Individual consciousness and logic are not comparable items.

If consciousness can exist outside of the brain, what evidence do people have of this? What theory would account for it? How would it work, specifically?

If consciousness can exist outside of the brain, why don't we experience our consciousness leaving our bodies and going someplace else? (Dreaming is not an example of this) Why can't we remember a time before our brains formed in the womb? Why is it that when people suffer brain injuries, they lose memories and their personalities can be adversely affected? Isn't it just screamingly obvious that consciousness originates from, resides in and ultimately dies with the brain?

The point of me asking this question is this: It seems that religious folks will devote a great deal of time subjecting obscure Greek and Hebrew texts to intense levels of scrutiny in order to verify certain minute points of biblical doctrine, but they don't look at simple, and to me, basic logistical problems that undercut the whole religious enterprise. They are missing the big picture. (of course, the brain-consciousness connection is only one example of this). If you can not experience anything after you are dead, then groveling before an alter every day, painstakingly memorizing obscure, virtually incomprehensible biblical texts, and flailing about in a religious fervor would all appear to be rather pointless. By all apearances, none of these activities is going to allow you to overcome death.

Anyway, I would still like to know if Christians/theists can explain how human consciousness can exist apart from the brain.

Thanks.

Brooks