Stiletto One

(Pardon the idiocy of the forum n00b)

Just an idea that popped into my head:

Let's say Moses really did lead a bunch of Hebrew people out of Egypt, and took on a leader role.

I'm assuming the Bible is partly grounded in fact—making Moses was a major religious figure...perhaps a cult leader. And a successful one.

Then maybe one day (like when, in the Bible, he got water to come out of a rock) he seemed to work a 'miracle' without actually consulting the newly-accepted One God about it...and his followers, who had been completely taken in, saw it as an act of sacrilege on the part of their (now former) leader. So the cult rises up and deposes its own leader for going against their new belief system.

What do you think?

Vinnie

What do I think? What is gratuitously affirmed may be gratuitously denied. Too much speculation for me. There is no methodology here and this is not in the realm of historical evidence but in the land of unverifiable assertions. What makes your scenario more likely than any other competing one that could be woven from whole cloth?

Vinnie

Vinnie

Oh yeah, where are my manners, welcome to the forum!

Vinnie

Volker.Doormann

There exist a clay table from about 2000 B.C.E. where is written the legend of Sargon www.doormann.org/sargon01.htm, which shows, that the biography of Moses, as written in the OT of the Hebrew Bible, is taken from Sargon's Legend. From this each historical conclusion is pure fantasy work. The hole story of Moses is a parable, which symbolize the descent of the soul 'down' into a physical body, which is called 'underworld', 'Hades' or 'Egypt' (Hebrew: 'Mitzrayim' = 'narrow places') and symbols the arise of the soul from this place in (physical) bondage back to the home of the soul with it's twelve spiritual attributes (Israel), as they are included in the Hebrew names of the twelve sons of 'Isra'El'. This 'arising' agrees exact with the time and hour of the full moon in the hebrew spring month Nisan, while the soul is 'arising' from the death, the bodies (Egypt) are leaving back as that, what is first born . This symbol is celebrated until today by the Hebrew culture under then name Passah each year. It is connected to exact astronomical positions of the Moon, while this position has a well known astrological meaning. BTW. This celebration are taken from the Indian Vedas www.doormann.org/manuslaw.txt The commandments in stone, which are claimed by the OT Moses received directly from a Hebrew God are copyrighted to Hammurabi www.doormann.org/hammur.htm and can be read today in the Louvre in Paris, France. Hebrew writers have mixed up in the Pentateuch secular social laws with spiritual order.


I think there is never a reason to assume, that something is grounded in facts. Weather there are facts or not. In the case of the myth of Moses, I never have seen Hebrew facts.

I think you are right. Your impression of this figure holds on some 3k years after the creation of this fantasy figure and leaves historical facts from sargon and Hammurabi alone.

Volker

Asha'man

Personally, I'm more inclined to see Moses as a terrorist than a cult leader. After all, he attacked the innocent civilian population of Egypt in an attempt to make political changes.

However, as the Palestinians are now learning, an ex-terrorist makes a lousy political leader. The type of person who leads in war is not the type of person you want leading in a time of peace.

Amos

Good point. Moses was a cult leader/terrorist who led his people into the promised land where they did not belong. It was wrong for him to part the waters because he should have led them over the water and into the promised land.

"To walk on the water" means to go by intuition which is the memory of our celestial sea and so we must go by intuition to get into this intuit memory of our soul. To get water out of a rock is an expression of premature spiritual awakening (Songs 2:7) that will leave the followers stranded in the "sinful yet saved" paradox that was the peculiar problem of the children of Israel. Hence the never matures to become one with Israel.

In this way, Moses was a forerunner of Billy Graham et al who also led millions of people into the saved sinner paradox. Notice Jn.6 where Jesus showed us how to get into the promised land and never die.

Those who see Israel as a promised land are the modern day terrorist because there can be no promised land except in our own mind.

Spaz

Well this doesn't really belong here, but it's talking about fiction and moses, so what the hell.

It's been my opinion (meaning based in no facts) that the OT was written as fantasy, expected to be taken as fantasy, no more no less, just stories to try to help people lead a good life as there were many stories from many religions to do the same. The NT however was written to be taken literally and that's what fucked the whole deal up. Once again, this is my current thought, based on nothing but me, so it's probably wrong

Amos

The OT is allegory and the NT is allegory. This means that they are true but not in a literal way. The nasty here is that the mythmakers knew that this would happen and are counting on literalist to further their cause so they would be as numerous as the kernels of sand on the beach.

There is nothing wrong with the story of Moses or Billy Graham could not duplicate it. The problem is that both Moses and Billy Graham were literalists (both were scripture readers) and that is why conflict exists and history repeats itself!

beth

The story of Moses also has parallels with Mises; an Arabian, Phoenician, and Assyrian mythological character. In the Orphi hymn to Bacchus, Misis is found in a box that is floating on the waters. Mises also had another name, Bitamer, meaning of two mothers. Also, as with Moses, laws were written on two slabs of stone. Mises had a rod that could turn into a serpent. He also divided the rivers Orantes and Hydastus with the help of his staff. He passed over the Red Sea, dry, at the head of his army. When his army began to thirst, he struck a rock and water gushed forth. The similarities go on, but I don't feel like listing them all.

The similarities also extend to Sargon. I was not able to read the site, as I assume it was in German. The story of Sargon's infancy bears striking resemblance to Moses'.
4. My mother, the princess, conceived me; in difficulty she brought me up.
5. She placed me in an ark of rushes, with bitumen my exit she sealed up.
6, She launched me in the river which did not drown me.
7. The river carried me to Akki, the water-carrier, it brought me.
8. Akki, the water carrier, in tenderness of bowels lifted me...

Amos

We have two mothers, Mary and Eve. To be reborn from God is to have Mary as our mother and to be reborn from carnal desire is to have Eve for our mother (based on Jn.1;13). If we are reborn from Eve we will always need to re-invent ways to draw water out of stone and if the BVM is our mother we will be illuminated by the celestial sea itself. Understand here that a "virgin birth" cannot be conceived to exist without a "non-virgin birth."