RichardMorey

Perhaps a theist can answer these questions.

1. God is often said to be absolutely moral, or holy. God's attributes are also said to not contingent on anything. However, morality only make sense in relation to other entities. For instance, if you look at the Ten Commandments, every commandment is in regards to either the relationship between God and the individual or between individuals. If God were the only entity that existed, it would be silly to call Him/it holy or moral. God's holiness DEPENDS on other beings, and thus is contingent. This violates the way the attributes of God are generally viewed.

2. The things which are considered moral or immoral in Christianity and other religions are often contingent on the way this particular universe is structured. For instance, homosexuality is often considered a sin. However, for homosexuality to be possible depends on such things as sexual reproduction. God could have designed the universe in a way that avoided the "problem" of homosexuality. Likewise, stealing would probably not exist in a universe without scarce resources, and lying would not exist in a universe where our thoughts were not hidden from each other. Murder would not exist in a universe where we lived an appointed time and died, without the ability to kill each other.
Morality is thus relative to the universe one finds oneself in and the God which made the rules. One could say, "But God invented those rules to give us the free will to obey him or not." This, however, would be in conflict with God as a moral God; He could not be moral in that case. He would simply be arbitrary.

3. People who know Plato probably see where this is heading. My third question is, "Is an act moral because God says it is moral, or does God say an act is moral because it is moral?" If the former, God is arbitrary. If the latter, God is not the arbiter of morality, but merely a conduit (as any human can be).


Can any theist answer these three questions?

Marduk

This would only apply to the Judeo/Christian type God. The Taoist would say 'God' is neither good or bag, good and bad are human inventions.

malookiemaloo

I cannot answer from a philosophical standpoint as philosophy is a complete mystery to me. A philosopher could probably convince me that the moon is made of green cheese.

1. Morality, in relation to God, is absolute not relative. It is human beings who say it is relative, usually in an attempt to justify some wrongdoing!

2. God COULD easily have constructed the universe differently. However, He did give humans free will which was used to rebel against Him. Non theists (and also some Christians it must be said) do have a tendency to lay the blame at God's door. But what was God supposed to do? We greatly under-estimate the effects of our sin and how much we should love God for providing redemption. (Not meant to be preaching here but cannot answer any other way.)

3. If morality is absolute, I don't think your question arises.


malookiemaloo

RichardMorey

Please address the argument. Did you read it?

Again, you totally missed the point. Please reread it.



What does "morality is absolute" mean? Please be explicit. That's exactly when the it DOES apply.

Biff the unclean

1. Morality, in relation to God, is absolute not relative. It is human beings who say it is relative, usually in an attempt to justify some wrongdoing!

That just isn't so. Morality, even God's morality, is relative to time and place.
Let's take a look at Father Abraham. He was the most moral guy of his time. God Himself gets called "the God of Abraham" after him. All three great western religions trace back to him.
But look at his story, he whores out his wife, he's an adulterer, he's a slave owner, he's a rapist, a child abuser, a rustler and a vivisectionist.
Today the police, the FBI and the SPCA would all be after Abraham. Were he a minister his church would collapse under the scandal. But in his time and place he was the most moral man alive.
So you seem to have this backwards malookiemaloo. Morals didn't change so that people could justify wrongdoing. Morals changed so that people would stop justifying wrongdoing. Things are getting better, not worse, on the morals front. Even God's morals (according to believers) have improved over the centuries. We toss perves like Abraham into jail these days instead of honoring them.

Cthulhu

Nontheists don't lay anything at God's door, because by definition they don't believe in him.


Well then I guess morality isn't absolute.

malookiemaloo

OK. I'll re-read.


M