Freethought & Rationalism Archive

11-19-2002, 04:13 PM

Yes Christians are redeemed automatically and sin is impossible for a Christian who has been set free from the law (Gal.5:1). That is, no law means no sin because the law is needed for the conviction of sin.

From this definition you can determine who is and who is not a Christian. In other words, if he is a sinner he is not a Christian and if he has been redeemed and set free from the conviction of sin he is (unless he is telling another lie).

You should also look at 1Jn.3:9 where it clearly states that a Christian cannot sin. You probably know the bible better than me so who am I to guide you.

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

Fiach · 11-19-2002, 08:07 PM

This is a re-post on the ambiguities of the definition of God. My point was that nobody can define god in a way that suits all of us.
You were getting to the modern variant of Pascal's Wager. If you are trying to decide from among four choices for your belief, these are your choices.

1. There is no God. We die. And it is over. We are not punished for what we thought while alive.

2. There is a God who is non-conscious, created everything, but needs neither worship nor recognition, since it is a natural force unaware of its own creation.

3. There is a God, who is conscious, intelligent, but kind, merciful, loving, and will take all of us to a paradise of peace, love, and positive intellectual stimulation after we die.

4. There is a God. This God is cruel, homicidal, and vindictive to a point of unimaginable sadism. He is creator of Burning Hell for those who fail to worship him correctly to the letter. He is supremely insecure and will also send to Hell all of us who dare to doubt his existence or are horrified by his depraved acts in the Bible. So we are saved only by absolute, unthinking, debasing, blind belief, and by submissive, abject slavery and worship of this terrible monster.

So whom do you choose to believe in?

No.1 there is no penalty if you reject this one.

No.2. There is no penalty if you reject this one.

No.3. There is no penalty because this God is too nice to want to hurt people.

No.4. This monster god is to be feared. Failure to believe or worship abjectly will result in unimaginable eternal punishment.

So the only way you can suffer is failure to believe in the very WORST GOD. If he doesn't exist you lose nothing as in 1, 2, and 3. If he does exist and you fail to worship, you face eternal torture and agony, which would not happen if 1, 2, or 3 were true.

So, the lesson is to imagine the very worst God your mind can conceive and worship him.

Fiach

11-19-2002, 08:23 PM

You missed one.

God is the intelligence within creation and is the cause of evolution. He is the creator of all and therefore is real but needs existence to be made known.

1 This opinion remains ignorant of the creative force within existence.

2 This is close but God is aware of its own creation to make adaptation possible. The counterpart of adaptation to create chaos in nature is natural selection. Since nature does not have a mind of its own the species must have intelligence to adapt in effort to survive. So your natural force must have intelligence or there would be no force.

Vesica · 11-20-2002, 06:04 AM

The everyone is guilty bit.....

I see a lot of ambiguity here and in the whole idea of man's 'sinful nature'. This could mean:

1) We should all walk around and feel like poo all the time.
2) Man's true nature is evil (not like this is a new philosophic idea).
3) Man naturally tends towards sin.
4) Man is a complex balance between self-centered survival instincts and the social conciousness needed to live in organized groups.

As for the 'I can do whatever I want and be forgiven'.....

This belief only works if you have not acutally read much of the Bible. Your past sins are 'remembered no more'. They happened, the consquences of them will not magically skip you (if I cheat on my taxes God will not save me from the IRS just beacuse he forgave me), and just because no one will mention them doesn't mean you can do it again and again. One is supposed to repent for one's sins, that is feel true guilt/regret about it. I don't think it is possible to truly regret something you wanted to do and rationalized it was OK to do even though you knew you shouldn't. No repentance=no real forgiveness. That and you would have ignored all of Christ's commands to emulate holiness and that whole Greatest commandment bit:

Love God with all your heart, mind, soul whatever: How can you deliberately do something hurtful to someone you really love? Like God is going to be happy you were hateful to someone he loves?
And
Love your neighbor as yourself: So if I hatemonger and harass the innocent people around me in the name of my God it means I want them to return the favor right?? Beyond even that simplistic example, if I fail to show God's love for all people in my actions and words I have failed to love those around me.

In the light of these 'commands' that most X-ians will say they believe, it would seem that those who expect a 'get out of jail free card' are screwed. How will they explain what they have done with thier lives and the time they had on this earth?? Some people are idiots, what can I say?

[ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Vesica ]

Peter Edward Faulkner · 11-20-2002, 07:10 AM

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Peter Edward Faulkner ]

Radcliffe Emerson · 11-20-2002, 07:37 AM

The thing that gets me is Jesus by his own words tells many Christians they are going to hell, even if they think they're saved. He says to ask for forgiveness, then NEVER COMMIT ANY SIN AGAIN, which virtually every Christian I've ever known in my life discards. He also says his followers have to be perfect, something no human is or ever can be.
It's funny how believers all interpret their holy works to vindicate themselves, regardless of whether their book actually says it or not.
Then again, it's all made up by humans in the first place, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that line of thinking.

Vesica · 11-20-2002, 07:42 AM

Peter Edward Faulkner - So was that random quoting for the sake of or what? It seemed to be support...except for that last bit about the fires of Hell...Here I come!

Peter Edward Faulkner · 11-20-2002, 11:34 AM

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Peter Edward Faulkner ]

Radcliffe Emerson · 11-20-2002, 11:56 AM

Take some time and actually study when all that was actually written, and you'll find it was anywhere from decades to centuries after the alleged events.
The bible is just a book, no more inspired than any other supernatural legends.
The biblical god slaughters people for stupid, ignorant reasons that the writers claim are god's.
God sends bears to maul children for insulting a bald prophet? A donkey talks to his owner?
The snake is banished to crawl and eat dust forever, and it also talked? Funny, the snakes I've seen eat mice, rabbits, etc, not dust.

And from day one, all of the so-called "inspired" books have been voted on, manipulated, and edited by humans.
Some of the writers of the NT don't even have the proper knowledge of the region they write about.
And yet, it's still insisted that this dribble is inspired by some supreme being.
And very little of it is supported by anyone other than either Jewish or Christian authors. Go figure!
Jesus was supposedly famous throughout Galilee, yet noone else ever mentions him?

yeah, right.

Religious ignorance is bliss.

[ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Radcliffe Emerson ]

Radcliffe Emerson · 11-20-2002, 12:00 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vesica:
[QB][b]
Love God with all your heart, mind, soul whatever: How can you deliberately do something hurtful to someone you really love? Like God is going to be happy you were hateful to someone he loves?

There is absolutely no proof of any god, and you're supposed to love something that never reveals itself, never intervenes, and allows indiscriminate suffering all over the world?
That's stupid.
And I don't care what kind of replies I get, it's stupid.
I went through this crap most of my adult life. Lived by the rules, read the bible every day, prayed to the wonderful Jesus.
Nothing ever came from it but more wondering about why this supposed wonderful god (who hates women and condones slaves by the way), never replied.
My parents, devout church goers, reading the bible all the time, then mom contracts fatal cancer.
And all the Christian idiots can respond with is "Well we don't know god's plan, yada yada..."

Bull!

11-19-2002, 04:13 PM	#31
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Yes Christians are redeemed automatically and sin is impossible for a Christian who has been set free from the law (Gal.5:1). That is, no law means no sin because the law is needed for the conviction of sin. From this definition you can determine who is and who is not a Christian. In other words, if he is a sinner he is not a Christian and if he has been redeemed and set free from the conviction of sin he is (unless he is telling another lie). You should also look at 1Jn.3:9 where it clearly states that a Christian cannot sin. You probably know the bible better than me so who am I to guide you. [ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

11-20-2002, 06:04 AM	#34
Vesica Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sunny FLA USA Posts: 212	The everyone is guilty bit..... I see a lot of ambiguity here and in the whole idea of man's 'sinful nature'. This could mean: 1) We should all walk around and feel like poo all the time. 2) Man's true nature is evil (not like this is a new philosophic idea). 3) Man naturally tends towards sin. 4) Man is a complex balance between self-centered survival instincts and the social conciousness needed to live in organized groups. As for the 'I can do whatever I want and be forgiven'..... This belief only works if you have not acutally read much of the Bible. Your past sins are 'remembered no more'. They happened, the consquences of them will not magically skip you (if I cheat on my taxes God will not save me from the IRS just beacuse he forgave me), and just because no one will mention them doesn't mean you can do it again and again. One is supposed to repent for one's sins, that is feel true guilt/regret about it. I don't think it is possible to truly regret something you wanted to do and rationalized it was OK to do even though you knew you shouldn't. No repentance=no real forgiveness. That and you would have ignored all of Christ's commands to emulate holiness and that whole Greatest commandment bit: Love God with all your heart, mind, soul whatever: How can you deliberately do something hurtful to someone you really love? Like God is going to be happy you were hateful to someone he loves? And Love your neighbor as yourself: So if I hatemonger and harass the innocent people around me in the name of my God it means I want them to return the favor right?? Beyond even that simplistic example, if I fail to show God's love for all people in my actions and words I have failed to love those around me. In the light of these 'commands' that most X-ians will say they believe, it would seem that those who expect a 'get out of jail free card' are screwed. How will they explain what they have done with thier lives and the time they had on this earth?? Some people are idiots, what can I say? [ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Vesica ]</p>

11-20-2002, 07:10 AM	#35
Peter Edward Faulkner Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 39	[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Peter Edward Faulkner ]</p>

11-20-2002, 11:34 AM	#38
Peter Edward Faulkner Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 39	[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Peter Edward Faulkner ]</p>

11-20-2002, 11:56 AM	#39
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	Take some time and actually study when all that was actually written, and you'll find it was anywhere from decades to centuries after the alleged events. The bible is just a book, no more inspired than any other supernatural legends. The biblical god slaughters people for stupid, ignorant reasons that the writers claim are god's. God sends bears to maul children for insulting a bald prophet? A donkey talks to his owner? The snake is banished to crawl and eat dust forever, and it also talked? Funny, the snakes I've seen eat mice, rabbits, etc, not dust. And from day one, all of the so-called "inspired" books have been voted on, manipulated, and edited by humans. Some of the writers of the NT don't even have the proper knowledge of the region they write about. And yet, it's still insisted that this dribble is inspired by some supreme being. And very little of it is supported by anyone other than either Jewish or Christian authors. Go figure! Jesus was supposedly famous throughout Galilee, yet noone else ever mentions him? yeah, right. Religious ignorance is bliss. [ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Radcliffe Emerson ]</p>

11-19-2002, 08:07 PM	#32
Fiach Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 602	This is a re-post on the ambiguities of the definition of God. My point was that nobody can define god in a way that suits all of us. You were getting to the modern variant of Pascal's Wager. If you are trying to decide from among four choices for your belief, these are your choices. 1. There is no God. We die. And it is over. We are not punished for what we thought while alive. 2. There is a God who is non-conscious, created everything, but needs neither worship nor recognition, since it is a natural force unaware of its own creation. 3. There is a God, who is conscious, intelligent, but kind, merciful, loving, and will take all of us to a paradise of peace, love, and positive intellectual stimulation after we die. 4. There is a God. This God is cruel, homicidal, and vindictive to a point of unimaginable sadism. He is creator of Burning Hell for those who fail to worship him correctly to the letter. He is supremely insecure and will also send to Hell all of us who dare to doubt his existence or are horrified by his depraved acts in the Bible. So we are saved only by absolute, unthinking, debasing, blind belief, and by submissive, abject slavery and worship of this terrible monster. So whom do you choose to believe in? No.1 there is no penalty if you reject this one. No.2. There is no penalty if you reject this one. No.3. There is no penalty because this God is too nice to want to hurt people. No.4. This monster god is to be feared. Failure to believe or worship abjectly will result in unimaginable eternal punishment. So the only way you can suffer is failure to believe in the very WORST GOD. If he doesn't exist you lose nothing as in 1, 2, and 3. If he does exist and you fail to worship, you face eternal torture and agony, which would not happen if 1, 2, or 3 were true. So, the lesson is to imagine the very worst God your mind can conceive and worship him. Fiach

11-19-2002, 08:23 PM	#33
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	You missed one. God is the intelligence within creation and is the cause of evolution. He is the creator of all and therefore is real but needs existence to be made known. 1 This opinion remains ignorant of the creative force within existence. 2 This is close but God is aware of its own creation to make adaptation possible. The counterpart of adaptation to create chaos in nature is natural selection. Since nature does not have a mind of its own the species must have intelligence to adapt in effort to survive. So your natural force must have intelligence or there would be no force.

11-20-2002, 07:37 AM	#36
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	The thing that gets me is Jesus by his own words tells many Christians they are going to hell, even if they think they're saved. He says to ask for forgiveness, then NEVER COMMIT ANY SIN AGAIN, which virtually every Christian I've ever known in my life discards. He also says his followers have to be perfect, something no human is or ever can be. It's funny how believers all interpret their holy works to vindicate themselves, regardless of whether their book actually says it or not. Then again, it's all made up by humans in the first place, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that line of thinking.

11-20-2002, 07:42 AM	#37
Vesica Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sunny FLA USA Posts: 212	Peter Edward Faulkner - So was that random quoting for the sake of or what? It seemed to be support...except for that last bit about the fires of Hell...Here I come!

11-20-2002, 12:00 PM	#40
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vesica: [QB][b] Love God with all your heart, mind, soul whatever: How can you deliberately do something hurtful to someone you really love? Like God is going to be happy you were hateful to someone he loves? There is absolutely no proof of any god, and you're supposed to love something that never reveals itself, never intervenes, and allows indiscriminate suffering all over the world? That's stupid. And I don't care what kind of replies I get, it's stupid. I went through this crap most of my adult life. Lived by the rules, read the bible every day, prayed to the wonderful Jesus. Nothing ever came from it but more wondering about why this supposed wonderful god (who hates women and condones slaves by the way), never replied. My parents, devout church goers, reading the bible all the time, then mom contracts fatal cancer. And all the Christian idiots can respond with is "Well we don't know god's plan, yada yada..." Bull!

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