Proxima Centauri

I'm sorry your wife won't read those books. If you read them that will help.

Proxima Centauri

At the start of this thread your wife was threatening divorce. You were desparate to save your marriage and stay with your children.
Now just as things seem a bit better, you say you've had it . Why the change? Please make sure you are rational and consistent.

BadBadBad

Darren,

I've been thinking about this today, and I think you guys need three things:

1. You both need to get off this divorce shit or you need to head straight down to the lawyers and get it over with. The emphasis may need to be her getting over it.

2. You need to get church out of your life. It will continue to be a stake in the heart of your family until you do. I've been through that and put a lot of thought into it. Church is a family thing. You can't center your family around a thing you can't be involved in. Husband is too big a part of family. Religious belief is an individual thing. That shouldn't be a problem. I don't care what the christians think here. You've got to throw out the church, the preacher, and the church cronies. Now, if you put your foot down on that right now, you're probably dead meat, but I think it's a main item on your agenda.

3. If she truly does have some mental issues, she needs to address it. Some anti-depressants right now could sure help. My friend I mentioned the other day that cheated on her husband and eventually got divorced, took anti-depressants during their ordeal. It didn't seem to change much, but I yield to the other posters.

My wife and I agreed to not discuss religion. Every time including yesterday morning that we step outside that agreement, it's nasty little problem, sometimes big sometimes small, but always nasty. If either of you step across that line, focus on stepping across the line, and don't argue about the religious comment or issue. I think you crossed the line over the grace thing. If she puts you on the spot at dinner, then let her be the one who keeps crossing it.

You don't seem to be making any progress on any of these items. When is this meeting with the Pastor? Are both of you pinning everything on that? If you are, I suspect you're both going to be disappointed.

Have you tried pinning her down on this divorce thing? I sat down with my wife at one point, and had it out over that. Not I'm sick of this shit, but I love you; I want to stay married. I can't deal with all these other issues without having the security of love and committment as the basis for resolving them. She's got to decide that your marriage and life as a family, all of you together, is the basis for happiness for you all. I mean does she think all this is going away after divorce? You're still going to hell. You're still going to have influence over the kids. I don't see the good part here. I don't see how she needs a counselor to come to that conclusion. She just needs to decide. Why not insist she decide if not right now, real damn soon?

Vicar Philip

Okay, divorce is not really what I want, and I would never tell her "I've had it." Any steps towards divorce will have to initiate from her, because I absolutely do not want it.

brett, I can see where you are partially right about me bringing up religion with this grace thing. However, in my defense, what I was doing was avoiding bringing it up during dinner. Believe me, the only thing worse (to her) than my atheism is my atheism rearing its ugly head in front of guests. Don't forget, I'm an EMBARRASSMENT because of it. So I was just getting the grace thing out of the way beforehand, knowing full well she was going to expect me to say it before dinner. Which of course she was. I thought I pretty successfully defused the situation by letting her know well in advance.

I guess I should reserve judgement on how all this crap is gonna come out of the oven until these meetings with the pastor are over. I meet with him by myself on the 22nd of this month, and then we both meet him on the 28th.

I have to tell you guys, though, that I know my wife; this "Christian family" garbage permeates her entire being, and she defines life by it. As I've said before, I am deathly afraid that anything less than a 100% belief in god from me, coupled with a return to church and all the other religious trappings, will result in all my wife's threats coming true.

Coming out of the pastoral meetings, she will either begrudgingly accept my atheism, or she won't. Only her god knows what she will decide.

Proxima Centauri

Shortly after Christmas you said your wife intended to give up her second job in three months. Are you any nearer to that happening? If she gives up her second job in two months she will then be less overworked and your marriage may improve.
Its too early to tell how she will finally adjust to your atheism. Don't let yourself be persuaded into an early divorce.

Vicar Philip

B.Shack,

Something that she said recently keeps nagging at me. I overheard her talking to one of her friends on the phone, and she told them that even though it was difficult for her to work so many hours, it was easier on her to be at work than to be home arguing with me.

So now I'm a little afraid that if she is home more, and we spend more time together, it might make the situation WORSE. I certainly hope not, but based on what she said, I have to wonder.

BadBadBad

Yeah, I could see that. My wife said just a little joke the other day about Hell. I told her in front of my kids there is no hell so I'm not going to worry about it. She crossed the line knowing it's real nasty when that happens. That's the deal we both agreed on. She broke the deal. I know it's a lot harder in your situation, and I'm on your side.


I hear you loud and clear. I know exactly where you're coming from. This isn't going away with some anti-depressants. She's going to have to become a different kind of christian altogether from where she stands today. She's going to have to decide your marriage and family are more important.

How does she respond to this? Her belief is independent of you. The children's beliefs are independent from you. They will be exposed to unfiltered world view of christianity with or without you. You'll have more unfiltered influence on them as an ex-husband. They will make decisions with or without you. They have this silly Free Will shit from God embedded in their souls. If they reject God, they are the only ones to be held accountable (not to mention God), it won't be your fault in God's eyes. She expects you to make that choice. They have the same choice in the face of the same reasons as you do for the rest of their life. I bring up kids even though you haven't much, because given my experience, that's a big part of it even if she's not talking about it. None of this is going to change if she gets a divorce.

She loves/loved you. How long have you been married? You're going to Hell. Com'on, what's she going to do just write you off and leave you to burn in hell? The Bible says she's not supposed to do that. She's supposed to be your salvation. She's supposed to be the foot in the door while Jeeusus is knocking on the outside. How's she going to do that as your ex-wife with new fundie hubbie in tow? Doesn't she think that might sour your view of christianity a little? I mean it's not her job to judge you as evil and write you off like that. Only our glorious God gets the joy of sending your sorry evil ass to hell for ever. Oh the sweet savour onto the Lord of your burning ass in Hell forever. I can just smell it now. Glory to God! Play a little game with her and open a little hope that she'll get to you on your death bed.

If she divorces you, what if that turns her kids away from her and makes them resent her christianity because of what damage it did to your family? That would be her fault for not following what the Bible says, would it not? So, she has a precarious role here to ensure their salvation.

It's easy to sit here and make light of this bullshit christian doctrine. I know it's more serious in your chair. Does any of this ever ring a bell to your wife? I know Helen is holding out hope that the Pastor clears this all up for her, and she's got a point. Maybe he will.

seebs

Not to beat a dead horse, but that sounds *just* like the kinds of things I've heard from depressed people under stress.

seebs

Hey, just an idea: Do you think you guys might get along better if you both agreed to clearly indicate that you were talking about personal opinions? I get the feeling that "I don't believe in Hell" would offend her less than "There is no Hell" would; similarly, if she replaced "God will..." with "I believe God will...", you might feel it less of an attack on your own convictions.

Enlighten Me

I can see that your wife would be upset that you refused to say grace. You could say a "prayer" before meals that acknowledges the views of both of you, instills a sense of gratitude in your children, and satisfies social conventions to a certain degree. I made up this prayer since, although an atheist, I still feel the need to reflect on my many "blessings." Maybe using it, or a variation of it, would convince your wife that you are not entirely unwilling to express sentiments that seem spiritual.



(Solemnly bow heads, hold hands, and recite together as a family):

We express our gratitude
For our blessings and this food.
Life is good!~~~Amen

Your wife can, in her own mind, address this prayer to God; you don't have to. She can think of "blessings" in a religious way; you can think of them in a non-religious way. Your wife may be fearful about what it will mean to your children to have a father who's an atheist. But if YOU always instigate the "prayer" ritual, you can establish yourself as a parent who is eager to be involved in the moral upbringing of his children, and who can deny that fostering gratitude in a child is a virtue? I wish you well.