Freethought & Rationalism Archive

slacker · 06-28-2002, 09:07 AM

Has anyone heard of this guy or has there been any previous discussions on him? He has some really cool views for a retired bishop! I don't know much about Episcopalians either. I am not sure if he is an atheist or not, but he really pisses off the fundies, which I find humorous and appealing. Do a google search on this guy and you'll find a bunch of fundie pages refuting what this guy says with the typical circular nonsensical reasons that most Xians use.

Here is a link to his "A Call for a New Reformation", which poignantly notes:

Quote:

1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.

2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.

<a href="http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/jsspong/reform.html" target="_blank">http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/jsspong/reform.html</a>

If there have been previous threads on this, my apologies, please point me in the right direction.

-- slacker

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: slacker ]</p>

Jobar · 06-28-2002, 10:20 AM

Hi slacker. (Are you a SubGenius?)

I don't know much about Bishop Spong- but I do know that some of our theist members don't like him at all. (Awwwww!)

I don't think this is the proper forum for this topic- but I'll leave it here for now, in case what you are interested in is the good Bishop's ideas on what God is, or should be. I will follow it with interest, even if I feel it should go to Misc. Religious Discussions.

B. H. Manners · 06-28-2002, 06:25 PM

I know several Episcopalians who want to see him formally excommunicated by their governing body.

Spong relies on scholarly sources for his information about the biblical text and not the dime and nickel apologists. He also acknowledges the Bible is not the verbatim inspired word of God or that Christ is neccesarily the one way to heaven.

Michael Ledo · 06-29-2002, 06:21 AM

I have read several of his books. He is a regular writer for the Spirtual Humanist magazine, "Human Quest" that other magazine Steve Allen was associated with which atheists don't talk about. He was O'Reilly Factor at the start of the Afghanistan War preaching peace. O'Reilly couldn't yell at him, being a bishop. Spong was very cordial and told O'Reilly society needs people who believes like he does, but that peace was the only solution acceptable.

Bill Snedden · 06-29-2002, 08:13 AM

Although raised as a Roman Catholic, I was an Episcopalian before my "deconversion", having switched to the Episcopal church after college.

I have never met Bishop Spong, but essentially, reading his works finally gave me the courage to admit that I no longer believed.

Even when I was a church-goer, however, I was still quite liberal. If Spong had come along earlier in my experience, I might still be an Episcopalian, as he is. From what I've read, his beliefs seem to me to fall into some type of Deism or Panentheism, with the idea that Christ represents Man's connection to the Divine (whatever that might be).

Anyway, most Episcopalians of my acquaintance also believe him to be an apostate. The few that see value in his work attribute it to the challenge he represents, or rather, that while his challenges may ultimately drive some change in the Church, the faith itself will remain intact and undaunted.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

slacker · 06-29-2002, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar:
<strong>Hi slacker. (Are you a SubGenius?)

I don't know much about Bishop Spong- but I do know that some of our theist members don't like him at all. (Awwwww!)

I don't think this is the proper forum for this topic- but I'll leave it here for now, in case what you are interested in is the good Bishop's ideas on what God is, or should be. I will follow it with interest, even if I feel it should go to Misc. Religious Discussions.</strong>

It seems that he takes a point of view that "God is the universe" or something like that, basically that God as theists think of him/her/it is nonsense, something that I think is somewhat compatible with atheistic thought. Also, what is it about New Jersey and atheism? I am from NJ, most of my close friends are atheists, Spong is from Jersey, the American Atheists are based there... interesting and weird.

--slacker

Ignore this fnord.

Bartok · 06-30-2002, 10:09 AM

Slacker, I believe God as "Ground of all Being" is the term you're looking for.

Anyway, I don't necessarily agree with all of Spong's points or how he presents them (with a kind of cynicism and underlying arrogance), but I do find them engaging and challenging. I only wish more believers would take his challenges seriously. It would do us progressive types a whole world of good.

echidna · 07-01-2002, 12:30 AM

We've had a few threads about Spong & I'm glad to say he generally seems popular.

From the archives,

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=22&t=001026" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=22&t=001026</a>

Radcliffe Emerson · 07-01-2002, 12:12 PM

I've read two books by Spong and I really like and agree with his viewpoints. One is called "Why Christianity Must Change or Die". The other is "A New Christianity for a New World" I think.
They're both very good.

echidna · 07-01-2002, 04:31 PM

Interestingly I think Spong divides the non-theists into those who wish to abolish religion altogether, and those who see it as having some positive qualities, and would prefer the struggle to reform it without losing those positive qualities.

I fall into the latter category.

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06-28-2002, 10:20 AM	#2
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Hi slacker. (Are you a SubGenius?) I don't know much about Bishop Spong- but I do know that some of our theist members don't like him at all. (Awwwww!) I don't think this is the proper forum for this topic- but I'll leave it here for now, in case what you are interested in is the good Bishop's ideas on what God is, or should be. I will follow it with interest, even if I feel it should go to Misc. Religious Discussions.

06-28-2002, 06:25 PM	#3
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	I know several Episcopalians who want to see him formally excommunicated by their governing body. Spong relies on scholarly sources for his information about the biblical text and not the dime and nickel apologists. He also acknowledges the Bible is not the verbatim inspired word of God or that Christ is neccesarily the one way to heaven.

06-29-2002, 06:21 AM	#4
Michael Ledo Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SC Posts: 49	I have read several of his books. He is a regular writer for the Spirtual Humanist magazine, "Human Quest" that other magazine Steve Allen was associated with which atheists don't talk about. He was O'Reilly Factor at the start of the Afghanistan War preaching peace. O'Reilly couldn't yell at him, being a bishop. Spong was very cordial and told O'Reilly society needs people who believes like he does, but that peace was the only solution acceptable.

06-29-2002, 08:13 AM	#5
Bill Snedden Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,597	Although raised as a Roman Catholic, I was an Episcopalian before my "deconversion", having switched to the Episcopal church after college. I have never met Bishop Spong, but essentially, reading his works finally gave me the courage to admit that I no longer believed. Even when I was a church-goer, however, I was still quite liberal. If Spong had come along earlier in my experience, I might still be an Episcopalian, as he is. From what I've read, his beliefs seem to me to fall into some type of Deism or Panentheism, with the idea that Christ represents Man's connection to the Divine (whatever that might be). Anyway, most Episcopalians of my acquaintance also believe him to be an apostate. The few that see value in his work attribute it to the challenge he represents, or rather, that while his challenges may ultimately drive some change in the Church, the faith itself will remain intact and undaunted. Regards, Bill Snedden

06-30-2002, 10:09 AM	#7
Bartok Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: St. Louis Posts: 21	Slacker, I believe God as "Ground of all Being" is the term you're looking for. Anyway, I don't necessarily agree with all of Spong's points or how he presents them (with a kind of cynicism and underlying arrogance), but I do find them engaging and challenging. I only wish more believers would take his challenges seriously. It would do us progressive types a whole world of good.

07-01-2002, 12:30 AM	#8
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	We've had a few threads about Spong & I'm glad to say he generally seems popular. From the archives, <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=22&t=001026" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=22&t=001026</a>

07-01-2002, 12:12 PM	#9
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	I've read two books by Spong and I really like and agree with his viewpoints. One is called "Why Christianity Must Change or Die". The other is "A New Christianity for a New World" I think. They're both very good.

07-01-2002, 04:31 PM	#10
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Interestingly I think Spong divides the non-theists into those who wish to abolish religion altogether, and those who see it as having some positive qualities, and would prefer the struggle to reform it without losing those positive qualities. I fall into the latter category.

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