beyelzu

really confused here, its hard to be insulted when you make no sense. please work on that.

the sentence was pretty simple but i will explain it for you

lesbians can only have sex with women and reproduce through artificial insemination obviously a sperm donor is still needed however.

I hope this clears up any questions you may have had about aritificial insemination

TealVeal

Which of course it is about when the states laws allows people to deny others visitation rights and freedom from post death interference from hateful family members.

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it is in societies best interest to promote pair bonding because of the relative helplessness of human children. their is a reason that humans generally pair bond. there is also a reason for the sexual division of labor.

Odd, tamarin babies seem to do just well with 2 fathers. Bonobo babies do so well with no parents, they get raised by the community just fine. Division of labor? Seems to be an artifical construct of culture to me. Seems like you need to learn a little bit about the mating and rearing practices of other species before you bandy about that card. Monogomy is horribly rare in animals.

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do not misunderstand me. I am not arguing that homosexuality is wrong or unnatural or that people who are in homosexual relationships shouldnt get to visit their loved ones. I also am not opposing companies giving benefits to same sex partners as they do married employees.

Did I claim you said that?

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But there is a reason that the government has recognized marriage as being between heterosexuals and it is not religion based as marriage, defined as pair bonding and the sexual division of labor, is far older than any religion.

Division of labor? I throw these arguments into the same bin I throw 2nd law of thermodynamic arguments. Marriage is defined biologically? When was the last time you went to a goose wedding? Weddings and marriage seem to be cultural inventions to me.

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You talk about the constitution all you want. It is irrelevant to this discussion.

When is the law irrelevent to society? I must have been asleep during civics class, thank you for enlightening me.

TealVeal

Here is how a homosexual male couple can reproduce: impregnate a women. Hire a woman to bring the baby to term. It's that simple. You don't need marriage to have a kid be born.

TealVeal

What? You want gay people to stop reproducing? Please clarify.

beyelzu

I do obviously understand that there are exceptions and ways around it. but a homosexual couple cannot reproduce without the participation of someone of the opposite sex. although in the case of artificial insemination the participation is somewhat limited. But evolutionarily and historically speaking homosexuals do not reproduce. Heterosexuals have, again as a rule, there are obviously exceptions, reproduced. It has been in societies best interest to support or encourage marriage because of the relative helplessness of human babies, or at least this was the case until very recently, evolutionarily (not a word I dont think but it should be) speaking of course.


Now I do recognize that society has moved on that we are no longer hunter gatherers and morals that made perfect sense to them may not to us and more importantly should not from a practical sense. This recognization is the reason that I am not opposed to gay marriage. I am just unsure.

From my perspective there is a third alternative, maybe our fundamental ideas about marriage should evolve and change. Perhaps everyone else's have and I am just hidebound. Perhaps instead of marriage for life, which is growing increasingly unrealistic, marriage should be for some sort of period of years and more easily dissolvable.

beyelzu

no i do not want gay people to stop reproducing. I was pointing out that they as couples do not from an evolutionary perspective. you know long term the rise of man and all that.


I do not advocate any anti-homosexual policy. I hope that this clears everything up.

beyelzu

of all primates human babies are the most helpless for the longest period of time after birth. although chimps are of course close. the sexual division of labor is more recent than pair bonding sure, but it does occur even among the !Kung Sun which are hunter gatherers. one of the few things that all human cultures share is marriage in some form do you think that that's just a coincidence?

I am not discussing mammoths or bears or dolphins I am discussing human beings. Also just because something is a social construct doesnt mean that it should be ignored. for example murder of someone in the tribe has been looked down on for all of recorded history and probably since the first tribe. If I argued that murder is wrong from an evolutionary perspective would you say "oh thats just a social construct."

Jat

Careful or he'll put you on his ignore list. Many homosexuals also make "donations" to sperm banks as well.

TealVeal

And we are bound to only do things which makes evolutionary sense?? I'm sorry but that's just rubbish.

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I do not advocate any anti-homosexual policy. I hope that this clears everything up.

Well if you aren't supporting the rights of gays to see sick parteners, and you aren't supporting the rights of gays to have our wills being interfered with by our relatives then you are by definition supporting an anti-gay policy by supporting the status quo.

TealVeal

Does it matter? Again, why should our society be beholden to what others have done? Are we going to start enslaving people again? You have to come up with a better reason than "but they're doing it!!"

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I am not discussing mammoths or bears or dolphins I am discussing human beings. Also just because something is a social construct doesnt mean that it should be ignored. for example murder of someone in the tribe has been looked down on for all of recorded history and probably since the first tribe. If I argued that murder is wrong from an evolutionary perspective would you say "oh thats just a social construct."

You are comparing murder to gay marriage? Wow talk about a strawman.