Jamie_L

It was this very question that planted the seeds of doubt in childhood that in adulthood bloomed into atheism.

There are so many gosh-darn religions, especially if you include the ones that aren't really around anymore. They can't all be true. Most tend to explicitly state that others aren't true. Many are so different that they can't seriously even be said to be trying to say the same thing but failing.

The most parsimonious answer to me (though I'd never heard of the word "parsimonious" at the time) was that none of them were true. Just like we all agree (well, not all of us - nod to OJuice) that the greek myths are really just myths, it seems a nice, tidy, symmetric package to conclude that human beings are prone to inventing religions, and there's no reason to believe any particular one is an exception.

What I wonder is how the person who maintains their belief approaches this question. Why so many other religions? If one is true, why so many who don't recognize it as true? Does the believer think, like me, that all the other religions are human inventions? Isn't that a disturbing thought - that others can be so duped into believing with absolute conviction in a fabrication? How can you be certain yours isn't fabricated. And if you don't think all religions are fabrications, then I ask again: why so many? Where do they come from?

If there is a truth, why isn't it more obvious? And why do cultural and geographic boundaries seem to play so heavy a role? Does the truth have a geographic focus? Is there a "radio to God" somewhere, and when you get far enough away from it, the message gets garbeled?

Just wondering. I've asked this before, as have others, but it was on my mind again today.

Jamie

wildernesse

Religion is a cultural construct. It is part of a response to the social and environmental climate that a particular group of humans find themselves in.

What do you mean by "true" and why does it have to be absolute? Religion is part of describing the world as people see it, which is going to be relative. One religion may be true for some people, and not for others.

Yes, religions are human constructs/inventions, but I don't know that I would say that religious experiences are. What people do with religious experiences is what religion is made of.

No, I don't find it disturbing. I don't think religious believers are "duped" into fabrications. I think that religious experiences can be quite powerful, are not fabricated (which isn't to say they aren't induced), and are suitable places to start religions. Any human explanation is a fabrication/man-made, and people accept those which are suitable explanations for events. Suitable is relative to the individual.

I find it interesting to note the vast differences in the way people see the world, it reminds me how narrow my outlook is.

My religion (Christianity) is a human construct, shaped by long traditions of the church and the society in which it occurred and also by me. It has value for me, and I am satisfied with it.


Why are you caught up with truth? I doubt there is such a thing--especially an absolute truth.

--tibac

Jamie_L

Because, for the most part, religions make claims to truth. Your outlook, I would say, is quite a minority outlook in the theistic community. At least, I have very rarely encountered it, and when I do, it is usually from someone who follows a more personal-based spiritualism and who has abandonned organized religion.

The notion that all religions have got it a bit right and a lot wrong is certainly more parsimonious than the notion that one is right and the rest are wrong. I believed that for a while. Eventually, however, that seemed to make less sense than the thought that there was no truth behind any of them.

I find it interesting that someone would follow a religion without a belief in its truth. How does it "work" for you if you don't believe it all? Most religions profess truth and expect faith in that truth from their followers. Isn't it a kind of deception to practice a faith without the faith?

Jamie

callmejay

I imagine that a theist could argue that since God is inherently unknowable, the religions represent various attempts at understanding who he is. This would only work for a pretty liberal theist, though, since most religions make very specific claims which fundy-types aren't willing to admit could be wrong.

wildernesse

I should have said: Why are you caught up with the idea of truth as an absolute?

Anywho. Yes, religions do make claims of truth. I make claims of truth based on my religion (God made the world, Humans are important to God, etc.), but they aren't absolute--they are true for me at least, and might be for others but that is up to them.

I'm a little confused--why wouldn't my religion work for me if I am aware that there are other religions that view the world differently than I do? So? I'm only myself, not millions of other people, and I can only explain my world based on my culture/experiences. Some religions wouldn't work at all for me, and would be decidedly untrue (for me)--which isn't to say they are untrue for those who they do offer adequate explanations.

I do have faith that my religion is true, that there is a God who has an interest in humans and that we can have a relationship with him through Jesus Christ and experience wonderful things by the Holy Spirit, life everlasting, etc. Other people may not agree with me--that's ok. I'm not them, and they're not me. I might believe that I'm right, and that this would be fabulous for all of humanity, but I could be wrong both about it being fabulous for others or it being at all.

--tibac

catmar

Simple. Human arrogance.

Jobar

Hi, wildy. I recently started a thread in EoG- The Search for Absolutes. In it, I point out that all religions are attempts to find absolutes- knowledge, morality, meaning, beginnings and endings- and, yes, absolute truth. The claim of absolute truth seems to me to be one of the distinguishing characteristics of a religion.

You say "I can only explain my world based on my culture/experiences." Well, yes- but then why do you hold on to a faith based on writings two thousand and more years old? The world we experience is not in the least like that described in the Bible; precious little of the Biblical worldview is in tune with the world we see today. So much of the Bible is simply wrong; we can't even call it ordinary truth, much less ultimate truth!

You say "I might believe that I'm right, and that this would be fabulous for all of humanity, but I could be wrong both about it being fabulous for others or it being at all." Despite Toto's opinion that there is no such thing as an agnostic theist, I think that's what you are. You have faith, but admit you have no proof, no certain knowledge. (Toto would call you a 'fideist', like Martin Gardner.)

If you choose to hold to your belief and your church, I certainly support your right to do as your conscience dictates. Still I must say that I find those beliefs incoherent, senseless, and counterproductive. IMO the social support system which a church provides is not worth the double binds and cognitive dissonance which any sort of Christian belief necessarily entails.

Philosoft

I don't know if it's a problem, per se, but here's where this leads me (Caution: I don't know if this will make any sense). Your religion regards other religions as partial-truths or personal-truths. But in order for that to be the case, your religion must be fully true. Do you see what I'm getting at? You are implicitly assuming the truth of your religion when you make the claim that other religions are vehicles for personal-truth, because it is not necessarily the case that other religions are partially true. And by doing that, you must accept the partial-truth of religions which explicitly deny the truth, partial or otherwise, of your own religion.

That seems weird, but it's late and I'll probably kick myself in the morning for overlooking something anyway.

Kassiana

Why so many other religions?
--Because the Divine manifests itself through whatever forms we create for it. If I mandate that the Divine appear to me as Jesus, then the Divine will appear to me as Jesus.

If one is true, why so many who don't recognize it as true?
--All religions contain some truth and some fictions. Human beings aren't perfect and don't (IMO) have the capacity to fully understand the Divine without filters like God/dess images, etc.

Does the believer think, like me, that all the other religions are human inventions?
--All religions are, to some degree, human inventions. So what? All the books I've read are also human inventions, and I enjoy them anyhow.

Isn't that a disturbing thought - that others can be so duped into believing with absolute conviction in a fabrication?
--Doesn't bother me, especially when the fabrication's a pleasant one.

How can you be certain yours isn't fabricated.
--I'm not. Based on my experiences and confirming experiences of others, I don't think mine is entirely untrue, and I see no evidence that my belief in the Pagan deities I honor harms anyone, so I see no harm in continuing to believe in it even if it ultimately turns out to be untrue.

If there is a truth, why isn't it more obvious?
--Maybe because seeking after the answer is the important thing after all...

emotional

Owing to the hiddenness of God, mankind has had to formulate various accounts of guesswork about Him.



The true religion would be so removed of man's conceptions of what true religion should be, so that mankind would have trouble accepting it. It's like the geocentrism/heliocentrism controversy all over again.



All the current organised religions, and their scriptures, are human inventions.



That's just human nature. Human nature has an inclination towards sin, and that is why humans are attracted to such sinful religions as Christianity and Islam.



It must be in accord with what we factually see. It must incorporate the facts of a large universe, evolution and constant natural law. It must be based on less dubious sources than scriptures that describe the earth as flat.



Why wasn't it obvious for humanity for so many ages that the earth goes round the sun, and not the opposite? Truth comes at the price of seeking it without preconceived, intuitive ideas.