Freethought & Rationalism Archive

seebs · 04-19-2003, 05:52 PM

I have to say, I have a lot of sympathy for that; I think the "people are worthless" teaching is very close to entirely false.

Why, you ask, don't I say "entirely false"? Well, let me tell you a story. I was debugging a program the other day, and I was watching closely for some memory corruption. Suddenly, I realized that I was looking in the wrong place. The next thing I said was "wow, I am such an idiot."

Now, I don't *actually* think I'm an idiot. But the statement expressed a true thing about my feelings; I felt that I *should* have noticed that detail earlier. I know it is possible for me to do such a thing.

Likewise, looking back at what I used to be like, I might say "wow, I was just totally free from any kind of empathy for other people". Of course, it's not literally true (unless we go back to when I was pre-verbal, maybe), but it once again expresses a true thing.

I think that some people, perhaps those inclined to depression, end up taking that teaching to mean something else entirely, giving us the Calvinist doctrine of "total depravity". It's just a failure to understand how people talk... I don't think it's a true teaching, and I think it's a very, very, harmful false teaching, in fact.

There's some truth to saying we're "not good enough", but it's pretty misleading. Most people who are married know that their spouses will still sometimes hurt them, even if they have a "good" marriage. So, does that mean my wife "isn't good enough"? No. Does it mean she's "imperfect"? Sure.

The Frood Dude · 04-19-2003, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Opera Nut
Frood, the depression and suicidal ideation were the end stage of a long period of depression and decline which happened after I joined a church and got baptised. I have posted in other threads, my experiences of feeling horrible in church, crying during sermons about how we are all worthless pieces of shit that sin and can never be redeemed, and the constant message that "you're not good enough and you never willi be."

I can't stand to be around Christians, because their death-loving ways disguised as life-affirming waves make me suicidal. I am not saying that I am morally better than other people. I am just saying that I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ORIGINAL SIN. I do not believe that a couple of fruit munching simpletons have anything at all to do with me as a person living now. In the legal system there is a presumption of innocense. God is not just if you are presumed to be a bad person just because you're breathing and walking around. I worked in the legal system for many years and you don't hit somebody with a rap just for existing.

We have something in common. I usually can't stand to be around Christians either. And I especially can't stand the condemning bunch. I also do not believe in original sin, at least not the way I have seen it presented here.

I'm glad that you recognize your depression had larger causes.

Seebs, you *should* have known? Why? Just because you have learned something prior does not mean that is the most readily available piece in your memory. It is trial and error. And there may have been other distracting factors as well that you are not telling us about. So while you "wish" you had thought to check something out, the idea that you could have done otherwise may be false. Only AFTER this experience will this item be lodged in your more accessible memory. Shoulds create a tyranny. And depression. So don't should all over yourself. And don't musterbate.

seebs · 04-19-2003, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Frood Dude

Seebs, you *should* have known? Why? Just because you have learned something prior does not mean that is the most readily available piece in your memory. It is trial and error. And there may have been other distracting factors as well that you are not telling us about. So while you "wish" you had thought to check something out, the idea that you could have done otherwise may be false. Only AFTER this experience will this item be lodged in your more accessible memory. Shoulds create a tyranny. And depression. So don't should all over yourself. And don't musterbate.

I don't actually have a problem with it; for me, it's a fleeting brush of annoyance, and then I'm better next time.

Godot · 04-20-2003, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seebs

I don't actually have a problem with it; for me, it's a fleeting brush of annoyance, and then I'm better next time.

Was that for frood's entire post or just this bit?:

Quote:

So don't should all over yourself. And don't musterbate.

Stormy · 04-20-2003, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godot
Please satisfy my curiosity for me. I would like to know the general feeling of the xians on these boards (denomination irrelevant) towards clairvoyance and various other aspects of ESP. Now I don't really care about what you think of Miss Cleo specifically, more along the general state of things.

Even has a small child I have been able to know things. I can find lost objects. I can sense danger around a person but do not know details. I often times get that, which I want, if my desire is strong enough. The last sentence may need more explanation for you to understand... but I would rather not.

I do not try to work these "gifts". I am not sure if God would want me to.

OpenSeeker · 04-20-2003, 09:28 AM

Quote:

How, then, do you classify God? Is He not supernatural?

Definitely, God is supernatural. I certainly do not reject the supernatural. Sorry if the original post was unclear.

I agree with GeoTheo that there needs to be discrimination between the "good and evil" of the supernatural. Many Christians will attribute nearly all unxplainable events that aren't directly written in the Bible to demonic activity. While I do not look for a demon in every corner, I definitely think that demons look for ways to distract people from God. One personal theory is that UFOs (the residual UFOs; the ones with no easy physical explanation, assuming there are any) are the result of demonic activity and will be an excuse for the millions gone during the rapture. Just a possibility (from a xian perspective).

Bree · 04-20-2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OpenSeeker
One personal theory is that UFOs (the residual UFOs; the ones with no easy physical explanation, assuming there are any) are the result of demonic activity and will be an excuse for the millions gone during the rapture.

But if God is omnipotent and all-powerful, why can't he see through the silly alien trick and prevent it?

Furthermore, where did these UFOs come from? Didn't God create everything in the universe? Or did Satan have this power, too?

OpenSeeker · 04-21-2003, 09:22 AM

Quote:

But if God is omnipotent and all-powerful, why can't he see through the silly alien trick and prevent it?

Furthermore, where did these UFOs come from? Didn't God create everything in the universe? Or did Satan have this power, too?

This goes back to the age-old of question of "Why doesn't God restrain evil?" and other questions of the kind. The short answer is that God gave free will to the angels and humans. Their choice to rebel will not be inhibited because they have free will (though they will still be judged). God put the dominion of earth under man's feet, so God will not intervene without a human wishing his intervention (prayer).

The UFOs are illusions put on by demons. God did create everything in the universe, and he gave Satan lots of power, as well as the choice of how to use it. Satan chose to rebel against God. For God to deny him that choice means that Satan never really had power or free will.

wildernesse · 04-21-2003, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OpenSeeker
The UFOs are illusions put on by demons.

Whaa? Which UFO's? How can you be certain?

--tibac

braces_for_impact · 04-21-2003, 12:39 PM

Oh please. This reminds me of Kent Hovinds statement that it's a possibility that Satan uses a UFO as fast travel because he can't compete withgod being omnipresent.

If it's a demons' job to distract us from god, then obviously all the demons are in Hollywood.

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04-19-2003, 05:52 PM	#31
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	I have to say, I have a lot of sympathy for that; I think the "people are worthless" teaching is very close to entirely false. Why, you ask, don't I say "entirely false"? Well, let me tell you a story. I was debugging a program the other day, and I was watching closely for some memory corruption. Suddenly, I realized that I was looking in the wrong place. The next thing I said was "wow, I am such an idiot." Now, I don't actually think I'm an idiot. But the statement expressed a true thing about my feelings; I felt that I should have noticed that detail earlier. I know it is possible for me to do such a thing. Likewise, looking back at what I used to be like, I might say "wow, I was just totally free from any kind of empathy for other people". Of course, it's not literally true (unless we go back to when I was pre-verbal, maybe), but it once again expresses a true thing. I think that some people, perhaps those inclined to depression, end up taking that teaching to mean something else entirely, giving us the Calvinist doctrine of "total depravity". It's just a failure to understand how people talk... I don't think it's a true teaching, and I think it's a very, very, harmful false teaching, in fact. There's some truth to saying we're "not good enough", but it's pretty misleading. Most people who are married know that their spouses will still sometimes hurt them, even if they have a "good" marriage. So, does that mean my wife "isn't good enough"? No. Does it mean she's "imperfect"? Sure.

04-21-2003, 12:39 PM	#40
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	Oh please. This reminds me of Kent Hovinds statement that it's a possibility that Satan uses a UFO as fast travel because he can't compete withgod being omnipresent. If it's a demons' job to distract us from god, then obviously all the demons are in Hollywood.

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