Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David Mathews · 07-28-2002, 06:46 PM

Hello MrDarwin,

Quote:

Judging from your statements about hell and damnation, David, I suspect that you're one of those Christians who is uncomfortable with Christian orthodoxy of eternal damnation and eternal suffering--which means there's hope for you yet.

That is true. I have already said that I have no desire for atheists to spend eternity in hell for any reason, even if they remain atheists throughout their life.

I do not believe that threats of eternal condemnation are an effective manner of making people love God or remain faithful to God. For example, preachers of the gospel with devout faith in God commit sins in spite of their conscious awareness of the consequences of their sins.

I believe that humans ought to love God simply because God is God. Humans should love their fellow humans simply because they are human. Humans should love the Universe simply because it is the Universe. Individuals should love their own self simply because it is the only self that they have, therefore they should make the best of whatever life they have been given.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-28-2002, 07:07 PM

Hello Wyrdsmyth,

Q: What I have always been curious about is that if a particular God exists, why does he not make his existence explicitly known to each and every one of us?

A. Perhaps God does, though some people choose to ignore or disregard the work of God in their own soul.

Q: If he wants us to be able to freely choose to obey or disobey him, love or not love him, that is fine. But how can he expect such a choice to be made when it is not evident to many of us that he even exists?

A. The existence of free choice regarding belief and love for God seems to necessitate that God not compel anyone to believe in Him.

Q: Could he not, at the very least, put the knowledge within each of us that he indeed does exist, and is in fact the Judeo-Christian God and not some other?

A. Perhaps God does. I don't know what is happening in your soul, but it does appear that God reveals Himself to my soul.

Q: The exhortation not to worship "false Gods" seems somewhat incredulous. Clearly it is in the power of an all-powerful and all-benevolent and all-present God to make his presence and existence manifestly evident to each and every one of us, unequivocally. Yet, he does not do so. In fact, it does even seem quite likely to many of us that the Judeo-Christian God, like all other gods, is quite probably a societal construct, a mythological development. So, it seems to me quite evident that if God does exist, he likes being elusive and leaving us in the dark, and allowing the possibility in our minds that he doesn't exist, may not exist, or other religions might be correct. What is the purpose of this?

A. The unresolved questions and the diversity of religions appears to benefit humankind in many ways. For example, the competition between ideas motivates people to gain authentic knowledge of the thoughts, ideas, beliefs, speculations and errors of others. When religions compete, they also borrow knowledge, wisdom and mystical imagery from each other. When religion competes with atheism, the whole Universe becomes a subject of investigation and awe.

That is why I love all thoe people who disagree with me, no matter what it is that we may disagree about. The struggle for truth is more important than finding the truth ... because God has withheld the Truth from us and therefore humans can never gain it no matter how much effort humans expend in the effort.

Q: Why only appear to a select few? Why manifest as a burning bush, or a voice to a select group of prophets in the Near East, or have a "chosen people" (the Israelites) among all the peoples of the earth?

A. Certain people are attuned to spiritual perception and that is why they receive inspiration. God chooses one nation because of the character of that nation and its ability to endure the burden of Revelation. Israel was worthy of the revelation.

Q: What is the point of that nationalism, that tribal deism? Is it not obviously more likely that the god of the Israelites, like the gods of other peoples, was created by the Israelites to justify and shore up their own interests and nationalism and desire to be united and to ward off oppressors?

A: Israel's original deity, the god of war which was a tribal deity, was utilized by God in a powerful way to reveal Himself as the only God of humankind. The prophets say as much.

Q: Is it not obvious that the Judeo-Christian religion has adopted other elements of other religions and philosophies, such as the flood myth, Aristotelianism and Neoplatonism, and incorporated them into an ongoing and developing conception of God?

A: Yes, absolutely. Judeo-Christianity's strength is its ability to preserve the treasures of these other religions and philosophies, incorporating them into the faith and modifying them to make them relevant to numerous generations of believers.

I must say that Christian can and will do the same to atheism, naturalism, materialism and other concepts which appear in a superficial sense to contradict its religious teachings. As a Christian I am not obligated to ignore wisdom even if the wisdom comes from a blasphemer.

As a Christian, I can explore all of the religions and philosophies of the world, borrowing or stealing their treasures so that I can incorporate utilize them in my own life. I don't regonize any boundaries and cannot help but appreciate the magnificent spirituality of all peoples everywhere.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-28-2002, 07:18 PM

Hello davidm,

Quote:

David Mathews, got any empirical evidence for the existence of the Christian God, or any God? Thought not. Let us know if you get any.

David: No empirical evidence for God whatsoever. Nor do I search for empirical evidence for God.

Quote:

Trying to get a grip on your belief is like trying to squeeze a shadow, or like trying to throw a net around a cloud of dust. There is no THERE there. Anything and everything works for you, as long as it can be shoehorned into your preconceived dogma. Atheists in heaven? Why not? Bible contradictions? Why not? Etc. Nothing matters but the belief.

David: I don't put handles on beliefs specifically because I don't want you to get a grip upon them. My beliefs are unconfined by conscious choice.

Quote:

This isn't an academic example, either. There are many cases of people who, speaking in the name of Christ, predicted the end of the world on a fixed day. When the day came and went and nothing happened, some of them simply maintained that the world HAD ended, but that people were too benighted too notice. How would YOU reason with such people, David? Yet, you "reason" just like they do.

David: As a matter of fact, I have argued with such people and have told them to their face that they were false prophets. They did not enjoy that message very much ...

Quote:

Any idea as big and bold as Christianity ought to make many testable predictions. As a matter of fact it does, and all its predictions have failed.

David: Is this some sort of law?

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Here is another prediction: Let us suppose that there is an abundance of extraterrestrial civilizations similar to our own. It is assumed that they would be biologically different from us but otherwise share much in common with us, including language, technology, a complex culture and a written history. Let's say we established contact with a good data set of such civilizations, perhaps around 50. Christianity, if true, predicts that most and probably all such alien civilizations ought to have a story deeply analogous to, if not identical with, the New Testament. Otherwise, we should have to develop some special principle singling out humans as worthy of salvation above all other intelligent species.

If all these worlds did have such a story, I would certainly sit up and take notice. My religious skepticism would be dented. But what if the opposite held? What if none of them had such a story? To take the most extreme example, suppose not one of these 50 worlds had a god belief at all? What would you say?

I suspect I already know what you would say. You would say, without any evidence, that humans alone were worthy of salvation. In fact, no matter what the outcome of such an extraterrestrial survey, it seems obvious to me that you would shoehorn the data to fit your dogma. Is that true, or not? To put it another way, is there any discovery, anything at all, that would dent your belief? Or are you like the guy and the rain?

David: I don't imagine that there are 50 civilizations which are close enough to the Earth for us to establish contact with them. Nor do I imagine that effective communication could exist between alien civilizations because of the length of time necessary to communicate, the volume of information necessary to accurately represent the diverse culture of the alien life, and the existence of fundamental and perhaps undetectable differences in thought-processes, reasoning and culture.

Nonetheless, there are at least fifty cultures on Earth whose religions differ substantially from Christianity. The existence of these other religions do not hinder my adherence to Christianity, so why should different religions on alien planets pose a difficulty to my Christianity?

Best Regards,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-28-2002, 07:29 PM

Hello Xyzzy,

Quote:

Ultimately, even assuming the existence of God, there is STILL no meaning to the universe. We have an immediate meaning to our world.. God created it to do something or other that may be ineffable to us, but certainly makes sense to God.

However, we're then left with the problem of what possible meaning God may have for his existence, and for doing all the stuff he purportedly has done and will do. Ulltimately that leads us back to the same problem.

David: Perhaps so.

Quote:

Why all this rigamarole God? Why should we bother having an afterlife, heaven, hell? What is the point of it all? We're on some cosmic merry-go-round where God creates the universe and us, we live our miniscule lives, then we're either burnt to a cinder or live an eternity of hedonistic bliss. But WHAT IS THE POINT?

David: Very good questions.

Quote:

Ultimately, this complex plan has absolutely no purpose whatsoever, it only distracts us from realizing it has no purpose by giving us a false "immediate" purpose (God's purpose). But this is a false sense of purpose, because ultimately there is no point to God or any of his creations.

So what we're left with is a purposeless universe either way. One in which we have no invisible men with magical powers, or one in which what you see is really what you get.

David: I believe that religious humans can have a subjective sense of purposelessness but this subjective emotional state is vetoed by God and the belief that our manner of day-to-day life makes a positive or negative impact upon the world around the believer.

Quote:

So where do atheists get their "purpose" from. Ultimately the purpose of our lives comes from the same source that the purpose of your life comes from: we are born with it.

We are simply born to take satisfaction in living, and satisfaction in the various types of activities that humans engage in. We enjoy watching movies, playing with our children, spending time with the opposite sex, and learning about the universe. It stimulates and iterests us, and that is why we do it.

Why do things satisfy us and interest us, and why do we find satisfaction in simply living? We simply have evolved this way. Our interests and motivations are tuned to help us mate, help us maintain strong family relationships and friendships, and pursue activities that will allow us to succeed at providing for our children and protecting them.

David: This is a possibility, though I would not assume its correctness unless we could detect a similar sense of purpose in plant and animal life. Lacking consciousness and self-awareness, the plants and animals are not in need of a sense of purpose. Why then do hunans need a sense of purpose?

Quote:

The Theist, however, is engrossed in a grand belief system which provides him with a false sense of meaning. He looks at life without this false purpose, and to him it seems bleak and meaningless. It is similar to how a heroine addict looks at life without his dailing fix. But the truth is that the pleasures and challenges of life are the same regardless of whether you believe in invisible all-powerful magicians that promise eternal bliss after death or not.

David: This is a distinct possibility. I would never suggests that *all* atheists lack meaning and purpose in their lives. Nor do I claim that *all* Christians possess a sense of purpose in their lives.

But I do believe that the religious context of life (spiritual vs. physical concerns) is more effective at overcoming the selfish and self-centered tendencies of humans.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

Denshuu · 07-29-2002, 12:11 AM

Originally, I was going to keep my mouth shut and stay out of this, but I just have a couple of questions.

Quote:

Q: If he wants us to be able to freely choose to obey or disobey him, love or not love him, that is fine. But how can he expect such a choice to be made when it is not evident to many of us that he even exists?

A. The existence of free choice regarding belief and love for God seems to necessitate that God not compel anyone to believe in Him.

But then wouldn't this defeat His purpose of threatening those who don't believe in him with eternal torment? How could an all-loving God give us an instinctual right to free "choice" regarding belief (it isn't really a choice at all) if it meant that the fate of a person's eternal well-being would simply be a matter of chance?

Quote:

Q: Could he not, at the very least, put the knowledge within each of us that he indeed does exist, and is in fact the Judeo-Christian God and not some other?

A. Perhaps God does. I don't know what is happening in your soul, but it does appear that God reveals Himself to my soul.

This is not the case, as a religion is determined by a person's societal surroundings. A person unexposed to religion could come up with a theory on the universe's creation of his own, but the results of that theory wouldn't differ so greatly if a belief in the Christian God was innate. But, alas, religions exist that are completely different from Christianity and, apparently, have simply sprung up out of the human imagination.

Xyzzy · 07-29-2002, 01:04 AM

Quote:

David: I believe that religious humans can have a subjective sense of purposelessness but this subjective emotional state is vetoed by God and the belief that our manner of day-to-day life makes a positive or negative impact upon the world around the believer.

But we weren't talking abouta subjective sense of purposelessness. If we were, there is no argument. Neither atheists nor christians have a subjective sense of purposelessness. I know I don't.

We were talking about the ultimate purpose of God. The problem is that there is no ultimate purpose to the divine plan as far as I can tell, and I don't see any purpose for God having done what he has done, or will do.

Quote:

David: This is a possibility, though I would not assume its correctness unless we could detect a similar sense of purpose in plant and animal life. Lacking consciousness and self-awareness, the plants and animals are not in need of a sense of purpose. Why then do hunans need a sense of purpose?

You're mixing up the subjective "sense" of purpose with the observation of purposeful behavior in non-intelligent living things that we observe.

Purpose, whether it is subjectively felt by the creature or not, exists as a property of anything which attempts to maintain a reasonably complex homeostatic system (keep itself alive) and reproduce. All living things do this, therefore all living things exhibit purpose.

Thus, purpose itself is derived from this feedback cycle, which is utimately derived from the earliest homeostatic chemical cycles when life first emerged.

So purpose is derived from feedback systems like our chemical metabolisms attempting to maintaining homeostasis and produce offspring. Our feelings of subjective purpose and our symbolic thought about it is directly derived from this non-subjective mechanical imperrative.

Let me explain how this works. Originally, evolution worked such that a life form would survive simply because the genes it expressed made it more well adapted to its environment. The feedback cycle was mutation, differential selection, and more mutation.

But more complex chemical reactions during the life cycle of an early chemical or precellular critter developed which would allow the critter to change its state based on external stimulus. When the changes in its state linked to the external stimulus were advantageous, it survived, and passed those genes onto the next generation, when they weren't, the creature died.

Bacteria have many such chemical signals which allow them to sense the conditions around them and respond to it. Since the "purpose" of the creature is to maximize it's own numbers, we can see it taking appropriate action to prevent it's own demize, and maximize it's ability to reproduce and have viable offspring by responding to its environment.

In a like sense, system such as memory, associations, symbolic modeling of the external world, and planning, and convolving systems such as symbolic thought and logic evolved allowing creatures to process information from the outside world in dramatically more subtle ways, and use it to their own advantage.

For humans, our sense of purpose is closely tied to family, to a sense of belonging and feelings of security and success. These feelings are all derived directly from our primary imperrative to raise successful offspring. It is these emotions and feelings which religion piggy-backs on in order to link itself into our primal need for a sense of belonging and security.

It is these primal needs, derived from our evolutionary imperratives, that Christians are talking about when they talk about "purpose".. as is these emotions which they feel are unfulfilled by not positing a cosmic father figure.

But though God may fulfill these direct emotional needs in some humans, he does not actually answer the metaphysical question of any ultimate "purpose" in the universe, because this question is by its nature recursive. For any answer, we can again ask what is the purpose of the "that". Ultimately we run out of things to provide purpose for us.

Quote:

But I do believe that the religious context of life (spiritual vs. physical concerns) is more effective at overcoming the selfish and self-centered tendencies of humans.

Sure it is. That's one of the positive aspects of theism. Unfortunately that doesn't make it true.

HelenM · 07-29-2002, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
<strong>David: This is a distinct possibility. I would never suggests that *all* atheists lack meaning and purpose in their lives.</strong>

I thought you had, at least once on these boards...maybe not though.

If you've posted to an anonymous stranger that their life lacks meaning and purpose just because of their atheism, that sort of implies you believe all atheists lack meaning and purpose in their lives.

However, as I said, perhaps you haven't actually written this. I may have inadvertently assumed something you haven't actually said and I don't have quotes to hand to know, at present.

love
Helen

David Mathews · 07-29-2002, 03:56 AM

Hello Denshuu,

Quote:

But then wouldn't this defeat His purpose of threatening those who don't believe in him with eternal torment?

David: God's threat of eternal punishment has meaning and influence only over those people who believe in Him. Obviously, those people who do not believe in God will not believe that they face eternal punishment for their rejection of God.

Quote:

How could an all-loving God give us an instinctual right to free "choice" regarding belief (it isn't really a choice at all) if it meant that the fate of a person's eternal well-being would simply be a matter of chance?

Could you rephrase this question?

Quote:

This is not the case, as a religion is determined by a person's societal surroundings. A person unexposed to religion could come up with a theory on the universe's creation of his own, but the results of that theory wouldn't differ so greatly if a belief in the Christian God was innate. But, alas, religions exist that are completely different from Christianity and, apparently, have simply sprung up out of the human imagination.

David: Christianity is not innate, but religion does appear innate. Humans have sought God and the transcendental on six continents for tens of thousands of years. Those people who consciously reject religion are often still very religious subconsciously.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-29-2002, 04:06 AM

Hello Xyzzy,

Quote:

But we weren't talking abouta subjective sense of purposelessness. If we were, there is no argument. Neither atheists nor christians have a subjective sense of purposelessness. I know I don't.

We were talking about the ultimate purpose of God. The problem is that there is no ultimate purpose to the divine plan as far as I can tell, and I don't see any purpose for God having done what he has done, or will do.

David: When you say that there is no ultimate purpose of God as far as I can tell it is evident that as a human you may not be able to detect or comprehend God, the Universe or any of the ultimate things. Why should God have ultimate purpose from a human perspective?

Quote:

For humans, our sense of purpose is closely tied to family, to a sense of belonging and feelings of security and success. These feelings are all derived directly from our primary imperrative to raise successful offspring. It is these emotions and feelings which religion piggy-backs on in order to link itself into our primal need for a sense of belonging and security.

It is these primal needs, derived from our evolutionary imperratives, that Christians are talking about when they talk about "purpose".. as is these emotions which they feel are unfulfilled by not positing a cosmic father figure.

But though God may fulfill these direct emotional needs in some humans, he does not actually answer the metaphysical question of any ultimate "purpose" in the universe, because this question is by its nature recursive. For any answer, we can again ask what is the purpose of the "that". Ultimately we run out of things to provide purpose for us.

David: Given that humans do need a sense of purpose which is separate and distinct from homeostasis, and given has traditionally provided this sense of purpse to humans, how do atheists go about finding a sense of purpose in their lives?

Best Regards,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-29-2002, 04:11 AM

Hello Helen,

Quote:

I thought you had, at least once on these boards...maybe not though.

If you've posted to an anonymous stranger that their life lacks meaning and purpose just because of their atheism, that sort of implies you believe all atheists lack meaning and purpose in their lives.

However, as I said, perhaps you haven't actually written this. I may have inadvertently assumed something you haven't actually said and I don't have quotes to hand to know, at present.

David: I did tell one anonymous stranger that his/her life lacked meaning and purpose. I am confident that the person addressed in the post does lack meaning and purpose.

An atheist might preserve a sense of meaning and purpose in life if he/she merely abandons the concept of God while preserving the context that religion provided in his/her life.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

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07-28-2002, 07:07 PM	#52
David Mathews Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 622	Hello Wyrdsmyth, Q: What I have always been curious about is that if a particular God exists, why does he not make his existence explicitly known to each and every one of us? A. Perhaps God does, though some people choose to ignore or disregard the work of God in their own soul. Q: If he wants us to be able to freely choose to obey or disobey him, love or not love him, that is fine. But how can he expect such a choice to be made when it is not evident to many of us that he even exists? A. The existence of free choice regarding belief and love for God seems to necessitate that God not compel anyone to believe in Him. Q: Could he not, at the very least, put the knowledge within each of us that he indeed does exist, and is in fact the Judeo-Christian God and not some other? A. Perhaps God does. I don't know what is happening in your soul, but it does appear that God reveals Himself to my soul. Q: The exhortation not to worship "false Gods" seems somewhat incredulous. Clearly it is in the power of an all-powerful and all-benevolent and all-present God to make his presence and existence manifestly evident to each and every one of us, unequivocally. Yet, he does not do so. In fact, it does even seem quite likely to many of us that the Judeo-Christian God, like all other gods, is quite probably a societal construct, a mythological development. So, it seems to me quite evident that if God does exist, he likes being elusive and leaving us in the dark, and allowing the possibility in our minds that he doesn't exist, may not exist, or other religions might be correct. What is the purpose of this? A. The unresolved questions and the diversity of religions appears to benefit humankind in many ways. For example, the competition between ideas motivates people to gain authentic knowledge of the thoughts, ideas, beliefs, speculations and errors of others. When religions compete, they also borrow knowledge, wisdom and mystical imagery from each other. When religion competes with atheism, the whole Universe becomes a subject of investigation and awe. That is why I love all thoe people who disagree with me, no matter what it is that we may disagree about. The struggle for truth is more important than finding the truth ... because God has withheld the Truth from us and therefore humans can never gain it no matter how much effort humans expend in the effort. Q: Why only appear to a select few? Why manifest as a burning bush, or a voice to a select group of prophets in the Near East, or have a "chosen people" (the Israelites) among all the peoples of the earth? A. Certain people are attuned to spiritual perception and that is why they receive inspiration. God chooses one nation because of the character of that nation and its ability to endure the burden of Revelation. Israel was worthy of the revelation. Q: What is the point of that nationalism, that tribal deism? Is it not obviously more likely that the god of the Israelites, like the gods of other peoples, was created by the Israelites to justify and shore up their own interests and nationalism and desire to be united and to ward off oppressors? A: Israel's original deity, the god of war which was a tribal deity, was utilized by God in a powerful way to reveal Himself as the only God of humankind. The prophets say as much. Q: Is it not obvious that the Judeo-Christian religion has adopted other elements of other religions and philosophies, such as the flood myth, Aristotelianism and Neoplatonism, and incorporated them into an ongoing and developing conception of God? A: Yes, absolutely. Judeo-Christianity's strength is its ability to preserve the treasures of these other religions and philosophies, incorporating them into the faith and modifying them to make them relevant to numerous generations of believers. I must say that Christian can and will do the same to atheism, naturalism, materialism and other concepts which appear in a superficial sense to contradict its religious teachings. As a Christian I am not obligated to ignore wisdom even if the wisdom comes from a blasphemer. As a Christian, I can explore all of the religions and philosophies of the world, borrowing or stealing their treasures so that I can incorporate utilize them in my own life. I don't regonize any boundaries and cannot help but appreciate the magnificent spirituality of all peoples everywhere. Best Regards, David Mathews

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