Ghillie77

I was sitting thinking the other day after a friend of mine called from drug rehab. Just thinking about what this really is all about.

I suddenly had this odd idea of it. I think the way religion works is a control issue. Real religious people usually come to religion during their darkest hours when they are at their breaking point and can't take anymore. They then break down and ask for gods help. Whenever you hear someone talking about the time that the 'truth' was revealed to them, they often talk about this feeling that a burden had been lifted from their shoulders.
The similarities between this and drug rehab is that when one goes to rehab, it's usually at their lowest point in their life. When they have no other options. When in the rehab, almost the very first step is to relenquish control of your addiction. They make you say that you're powerless over your addiction. These people also report a feeling of a burden being lifted once this happens.
My thought is that this is the exact reason why religious people feel so strongly about god and religion. Because during those hard times, they asked for gods help and then got through these problems they were so distraught over.
This has logical basis though. When someone is struggling hard, and barely hanging on at all. Once they relenquish that control, they feel much better, they can think clearer, and then let others help them through the problem. Many people mistake this for god stepping in and guiding them through.

Here's a scenario to describe it better:
There's a man, we'll call him Ted. Well, Ted is a 30 year old man who has a job he hates. His wife recently left him for someone else, and took their 2 children. He's not a religious person at all really. He drinks alot now after the divorce, does some drugs, and is generally not a happy man.
He cries very often, and has contemplated suicide. One night he is at his house drinking himself into sedation. He's watching TV, comes upon a religious channel. He turns it off after a minute or 2, then starts feeling really sorry for himself and dwelling on the problems. He goes into a fit of rage and starts trashing his entire house. This goes on for 10 minutes, then drunk and tired he drops to the floor and starts bawling his eyes out. As a last attempt to do something, he calls out-"Please god, help me. I can't do this alone! Please help me"!? At this point he has relenquished control, and his grip on himself and his problems has loosened. He feels a feeling of great relief after this, and can see much clearer. A burden has in fact been lifted.
OK, so now Ted thanks god for the help, and promises to follow gods word from now on. His first step is to find a suitable church. He approaches a local preist and inquires about things. He tells the priest exactly what his experience was and how it brought him to seek out a church. The preist invites him to attend a bible study. At this bible study, the priest introduces Ted to the rest of the people. But, he makes a special effort to introduce Ted to a woman around his own age, who also has recently gone through a divorce, and has a child. Ted and this woman go out for coffee after church and get talking. They find out how much they have in common and make a second date. The 2nd date goes well, and the 3rd date the woman brings her child. Ted gets along with the boy, and his feelings toward this woman intensify by the second. Months later, Ted and this woman are married, and it's a great marriage. Much better than both of their first marriages. Both ted and his new wife are so thankful to god for bringing them together and allowing their pain to cease and for them to get on with their lives.

Now, I ask you, was this the work of god? Or was it simply coincidence, and a matchmaking preist on his toes and willing to help people who need it?
I say it's just coincidence. Many, many people are converted to religion by things not too different from the scenario I described above. Is this the Celestine Prophecy coming true?

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Ghillie77 ]</p>

Pandora

Welcome!

I think you’ve got it summed up nicely there. The only thing that you forgot is that once you’ve got the people there and feeling good, you need to throw in a few threats – otherwise they might slope off and forget that “goddiditt” and that wouldn’t do the church coffers any good at all.

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Pandora ]</p>

Pandora

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Pandora ]</p>

phaedrus

Wasnt it marx who said "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

b@rtleby

Ghillie77,
whilst you have used your example to describe a very christian situation i think you have indentified a truth that is applicable to all religions, whether it be the trusting in jesus of christianity, the loss of self of the eastern religions, or the submission to allah in islam, or even the cathartic 'spells' in lavey style satanism.
but i think a large part of what keeps people in religion is the continued "religious experience" of which the initial 'breakdown' is just the first occurence. in the writings of the mystics of all faiths we read similar descriptions of this religious experience which in a more mundane setting is the feeling christians often express when they pray or 'commune' with god.
i, personally, rather than considering this 'universal religious experience' as a sign of the existence of a god or a spiritual realm, think it is a natural psychological state (similar to being awe struck at the view of the sunset etc.) and that instead of dismissing it due to its religious connotations it is an area that deserves further study because in it can clearly be helpful to the individual.
thanks
bb

1sec

Any Christian will retort that coincidence is also the work of God.

Every talk about the Big Guy ultimately depends on whether his existence can be proved or not.

If you can prove there is a God in the first place I might take into consideration the idea that Ted has been saved by God.

If not, what's the point?

Francois Tremblay

You equate the two situations because in both cases the person is vulnerable. I am not sure this is a very extensive basis for comparaison. Religion in itself can be a powerful drug...

WJ

G,

If someone prays and everytime he/she prays, an answer returns, is it coincidence? And if it is, why should the person stop praying?

Is it a psychological need to pray? And if so, what comprises the needs for human consciousness?

Sorry for all the questions, but you seemed to have it all worked out.

Walrus

Ghillie77

Yeah, I understand the concept of religion as a drug, and the bible a needle. The circumstances which confuse a person and lead them to mistakenly accredit god in the scenario above were my point. And that's my only point.

The way I see it, the only person who would pray all the time, and percieve their prayers to be coming true would be people who aren't praying for personal gain. They would most likely pray for the strength to see them through a problem, or the wisdom to recognize a problem, blah, etc. And if they believe strongly that prayer works, and especially if they believe their prayers are coming true, the whole situation would instill a sort of confidence which could be what helps them, but they would credit god for it. If the person wants to pray, let them pray. I don't tell people not to pray, or to stop praying. I just don't believe in prayer, and don't partake in it. And I'm saying there are coincidences which cause people to be dis-illusioned in things.

Probably simple curiosity. And then it would be a psychological need to know. Not to pray. Prayer is just a ritual that people use which has a type of "placebo effect". The mind is very convincing of things, especially to itself. You should see that already though.

Warren Sinden

If people want to pray and be blinded by a monotheistic religion good for them but they shouldn't be a snake and through the bible at you when you are down and out.
when I was younger even the Rehabs kicked me out.
The only thing that got me right was a good woman who is my partner today and my own will power.

I don't believe anybody can prove that the bible is true and there is nothing I hate more than someone trying to preach to me.