agapeo

Taking that position Starboy I would assume therefore that you would support any action that the parents of Tricia would take in order to "save" their daughter from what they consider delusional, irrational, inappropriate thinking and behavior. Thinking and behavior which goes against the grain of what you as a parent consider to be rational and appropriate thinking and behavior. Is this right?

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: agapeo ]</p>

Starboy

Er, yes.

Sephiroth

Ahem, are these off-topic posts really necessary?

Starboy

Sephiroth, is that question directed at me?

agapeo

My apologies Sephiroth if you are referring to my posts. It has always been my desire to keep this topic on the subject of "What would you do . . ." and since it (this topic) is somewhat related to what is happening to Tricia I merely wanted to point out to Starboy that his responses would appear to be somewhat similiar in nature as Tricia's parents might be. Is either right or wrong? I don't know. That is why I have this personal interest in this topic because I'm dealing with the issue from the other end of the stick. Seeing that I am I thought the imputs from those who took this topic seriously may give me something to go on that would be beneficial to me personally.

So, if you're referring to something I've said then I'll be more careful in what I decide to comment on.

David Bowden

I agree with Wolf that it's definitely not 'the worst' that could happen to my progeny. There have been many worthy people in my family who happen to be believers, and any children my wife and I might hypothetically raise one day would, Christian or otherwise, be excellent, well-balanced human beings. Or so I hope.

That's my first priority in raising them. The worst that could happen (short of some tragic harm to their persons) would be for them to develop into rotten individuals. There are atheists as well as believers like this...

I think it could vary widely depending upon the circumstances. Assuming an intellectually average child and that they've received their new Christianity as the result of a peer's casual testifying/ witnessing:

S/He would have been brought up learning to read and think critically, to ask questions, and certainly not to just take someone's word for it, especially if they heard it on TV, read it in a newspaper or online, or got it from someone who claimed to know something about the origin and fate of the universe, the nature of the afterlife or karma, and those invisible things called souls.

I would from the beginning encourage them to bring anything like that to the dining room table, or to bring it up whenever it's on their minds. Whether it's accounts of psychic spoon-bending or of virgin-births, I'd want to train them to ask the sort of questions that give whatever answers they find some real credibility.

I can't imagine a new, young Christian coming home and not wanting their whole family to join them in their newfound faith. Therefore I'm pretty sure that there'd be a discussion about it right away, probably initiated by them, but certainly as welcome at the table as any other discussion. I would, if at all possible, lead them through the same basic questioning about supernatural claims that we would have grown accustomed to using together and individually.

In short, I would encourage them to leverage all the best that's within them, to really analyze themselves, the world as they've experienced it so far, and this new set of doctrines they've accepted, and see if it all jives.

One question that they would have to deal with:
"Son, do you understand why I am no longer a Christian?"

I believe that discussing that would at least lead them to reconsider everything they think is true about Christianity.

After so much discussion, I'd trust them to make a competent decision about their "salvation" from that point, and if they remained Christians, then I'd keep an eye out for signs of deep emotional re-shaping or obvious cult signs. (Some Christianities are nice, and some are very, very bad...)

But by and large during their late teenage years I'd leave them to their own devices and continue to be my contented fatherly atheistic self around them. The presence of Christian friends and family members is something I assume will always be a factor in my life.

If they really were wacko Christians, or if I thought my child was too immature to be sure of themself in a heavy-witnessing situation (and I do apologize for my pronoun-abuse BTW) then I would put my foot down.

Anecdote time. During her childhood, my wife visited a fundamentalist Baptist church with a friend whose family attended. My wife was already being brought up in a less-abusive fundamentalist church. Well, these folks preached damnation long and hard, and then dragged her into something called a "prayer closet" and put the fear of hell into her (in Christian love, I'm sure) until she was crying and just said whatever they told her to.

My youngish children would never be allowed to return to such a church, and if I suspected that some sort of intimidation had anything to do with my teenager getting "saved", then I'd at the very least caution them, and I'd certainly have a face-to-face talk with the pastor or group leader concerning his "style".

Christians aren't crazy (at least not all of them ). I hope to instill in my children a set of critical thinking skills that will comfortably support them in any situation, and that will reinforce reasonable behavior on their part, and that will make irrationality or "craziness" very uncomfortable for them to live with, whether I say anything or not.

C S Lewis' conversion boggles my mind, but I believe we would have enjoyed each other's company a great deal nontheless, had we been family. Whether he was crazy or not isn't something I bother to think about; I assume he wasn't and remain bemused at his earnest but ridiculous reasoning. I believe it would be like that if my children turned religious at some point. I really doubt they'd go loony with it.

After doing as I've posted, what I'd do next is come here to II and moan and groan and commisserate and get some support and then feel better.

That seems perfectly healthy, Helen.

Your husband's an unbeliever, IIRC, right? Is he basically apathetic when it comes to the religious decisions yet to be made by your kids, or does he intend to involve himself in guiding them as they form a worldview?

I'm not meaning to pry deep into your personal life, just curious: Have you asked him the question you asked us, and could you share the gist of his response? Does he actually view conversion to Christianity as "the worst" happening? (and if so, what must sharing the news of your conversion have been like... maybe I don't want to go there...!)

- David (who'd be pleased as punch to share dinner or a drink with most of the Christians he knows)

edited to add: I don't know why, but for some reason my quotes say "originally posted by HelenSL" even though "HelenM" is the name I saw on the OP. Weird...

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: David Bowden / wide-eyed wanderer ]</p>

HelenM

Originally posted by David Bowden / wide-eyed wanderer:

HelenSL: But suppose 'the worst' (from your point of view) happened.

I agree with Wolf that it's definitely not 'the worst' that could happen to my progeny.

I was being a little tongue-in-cheek there, just so you know

There have been many worthy people in my family who happen to be believers, and any children my wife and I might hypothetically raise one day would, Christian or otherwise, be excellent, well-balanced human beings. Or so I hope.

That's my first priority in raising them. The worst that could happen (short of some tragic harm to their persons) would be for them to develop into rotten individuals. There are atheists as well as believers like this...

I've noticed that

HelenSL: I wonder what the parents would do? There's probably not one answer.

I think it could vary widely depending upon the circumstances.

I was thinking parental attitudes would be just as significant as circumstances, in determining the answer of individuals.

I can't imagine a new, young Christian coming home and not wanting their whole family to join them in their newfound faith.

Excellent point.

One question that they would have to deal with:
"Son, do you understand why I am no longer a Christian?"

I hope they would listen respectfully to this. However, I am envisaging they had some kind of 'revelation' and I'm guessing they'd be thinking "Yeah, but you probably never really 'saw the light' in the way I have, Dad!" I.e. the 'but you were never a real Christian' defense.

And indeed you might never have had the exact beliefs of the group your child is with, at present.

I believe that discussing that would at least lead them to reconsider everything they think is true about Christianity.

Ummm...do you think so?

How effective is reasoned discussion against 'revelation'/powerful emotional personal experience?

Do you think you can talk a young adult out of love by telling them why the other person is 'not a good match' for them?

I'd say, don't underestimate the power of - well, what I said: 'revelation'/powerful emotional personal experience.

After so much discussion, I'd trust them to make a competent decision about their "salvation" from that point, and if they remained Christians, then I'd keep an eye out for signs of deep emotional re-shaping or obvious cult signs.

I'm sure you'd be watching them. But I'm not sure that you could discuss them out of it. If so then why are there organizations that kidnap kids from cults, to deprogram them?

(Some Christianities are nice, and some are very, very bad...)

I take your point.

But by and large during their late teenage years I'd leave them to their own devices and continue to be my contented fatherly atheistic self around them. The presence of Christian friends and family members is something I assume will always be a factor in my life.

I daresay that having respected Christian family members would make it easier to handle a child making the choice to be a Christian.


HelenSL: I wonder if any atheist parents would put their foot down and say "You can't be with those wacko Christians any more!" in an attempt to remove influence on their child which they find very objectionable.

If they really were wacko Christians, or if I thought my child was too immature to be sure of themself in a heavy-witnessing situation (and I do apologize for my pronoun-abuse BTW) then I would put my foot down.

How, though? What would you actually do? Forbid their attendance at church groups? Forbid them seeing people from there at all? What would you do?

Anecdote time. During her childhood, my wife visited a fundamentalist Baptist church with a friend whose family attended. My wife was already being brought up in a less-abusive fundamentalist church. Well, these folks preached damnation long and hard, and then dragged her into something called a "prayer closet" and put the fear of hell into her (in Christian love, I'm sure) until she was crying and just said whatever they told her to.

My youngish children would never be allowed to return to such a church, and if I suspected that some sort of intimidation had anything to do with my teenager getting "saved", then I'd at the very least caution them, and I'd certainly have a face-to-face talk with the pastor or group leader concerning his "style".

Indeed. One option that no-one else mentioned, is to go along and see exactly what is being told to your child and how it's being told. To get firsthand information.

HelenSL:
Or whether all atheist parents would simply sigh and say "you're crazy...but, it's up to you..."

Christians aren't crazy (at least not all of them.

Indeed

I hope to instill in my children a set of critical thinking skills that will comfortably support them in any situation, and that will reinforce reasonable behavior on their part, and that will make irrationality or "craziness" very uncomfortable for them to live with, whether I say anything or not.

That makes sense to me.

C S Lewis' conversion boggles my mind,

There are reasons for everything; we just don't know all of them.

but I believe we would have enjoyed each other's company a great deal nontheless, had we been family.

I'm glad you can approach relationships with believers this way.

I enjoy the company of atheists - obviously...

HelenSL: What do you think, those of you who could believe this could ever happen to atheist parents? What would the parents do?

After doing as I've posted, what I'd do next is come here to II and moan and groan and commiserate and get some support and then feel better.

lol

HelenM: I hope I would respect that as their decision to make.
I'd say my focus is on raising them to be wise, to think for themselves and to make good choices. If that means they think atheism is a good choice, well, so be it...

That seems perfectly healthy, Helen.

Your husband's an unbeliever, IIRC, right? Is he basically apathetic when it comes to the religious decisions yet to be made by your kids, or does he intend to involve himself in guiding them as they form a worldview?

Yes, he's an unbeliever. I wrote about this a little, just in the last few days, on a thread on SL&S. I was saying that we seem to have a balance for now, of what we both can accept...he likes having Sunday mornings alone so he's happy for me to take the children to church; I generally don't raise Christian issues with him and the kids together because he will say what he thinks, although he won't push it. And I don't want worldviews to be an ongoing battleground at home. The children know he's an atheist and I suppose as they grow up they will decide whether that is a more accurate worldview than the Christian one.

I'm not meaning to pry deep into your personal life,

That's what they all say... ;-)

just curious: Have you asked him the question you asked us, and could you share the gist of his response? Does he actually view conversion to Christianity as "the worst" happening? (and if so, what must sharing the news of your conversion have been like... maybe I don't want to go there...!)

We were dating but not married when I became a Christian. I told him and it did somewhat weird him out; it could have split us up, I think, but I guess it didn't.

I think he considers that it's up to the children to decide for themselves. I suppose it's not therefore 'the worst', by any means, to him. His attitude if they grow up resolute Christians will probably be like yours, about CS Lewis. You don't get it but you still would enjoy him as a person.

edited to add: I don't know why, but for some reason my quotes say "originally posted by HelenSL" even though "HelenM" is the name I saw on the OP. Weird...

You think THAT is weird - did you notice that the last one says HelenM not HelenSL?!

Unless you altered it yourself I don't understand that at all.

Anyway I suppose it's because my username in the system remains HelenSL even though <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=44&t=001481" target="_blank">I changed my screenname to HelenM</a>.

Thanks for your response, thoughtful as always, David!

love
Helen

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

Boro Nut

I would take a leaf out of Mary's book and crucify the little get.

Boro Nut

livius drusus

Best. Nut. Ever.

HelenM

I didn't think crucifixion was legal in Middlesbrough...(if it had been, I don't know how my Dad managed to escape it, based on the stories I've heard about him growing up )

Perhaps I should have clarified the question to: what would you do to your child that is legal?

love
Helen