andy_d

Hmm, seems we've got some crossed wires here.

It's romance which I said was a negative artificial construct, not beauty.

Now that we've cleared that up, I think my post should make a bit more sense to you

leyline

"As for your friend, well everybody has an image of their "ideal" partner stored in their head. It's a trap caused by our ridiculous Western notion of romance. "

i made it quite clear that his problem was that her physical appearance undermined the possibility of them getting it together in his eyes, which they both wanted to do. These were not very young inexperienced people either, and William is a nice guy.

Can't you even concieve that two people can find a real emotional and spiritual dillemma over the issue of physical beauty. Do you seriously contend that....

"Personally, I don't believe that your physical appearance has any impact on your personal potential, besides whatever blocks you project onto yourself."

We are cultural beings too and with regards to 'romance' you assert that culture has a real impact. Have you a concept of romance that has nothing to do with percieved beauty???

andy_d

No, physical beauty is undoubtedly a part of the romantic ideal. Only a part of it, though. Romance is a concept that proposes that there is one person who will fulfill all our needs, and complete us as a person.

It causes us to measure those we meet against this fantasy person, which can be a real obstacle to happiness for many people. Comparing real people against an ideal is a short route to dissapointment.

In your friend's case, his idea of what his partner should look like (part of his romantic ideal) didn't match the reality of what happened to him. From what you describe he had a chance to have a special connection with another live human being, but he couldn't make it past the clash of what he thought she was "supposed" to look like. That's a real missed opportunity.

Really, I think we're on the same wavelength here. Compare:

Me: "Personally, I don't believe that your physical appearance has any impact on your personal potential, besides whatever blocks you project onto yourself."

You: "her physical appearance undermined the possibility of them getting it together in his eyes"

We're saying the same thing, aren't we?

Carol Massey

I think you are but who am I to know?

Consider reading Carl Jung's description of anima and animus. Very insightful when considering the 'romantic ideal' and how it is projected onto others unconsciously, and usually with disasterous results.

leyline

andy

"We're saying the same thing, aren't we? "

i am afraid we are saying very different things.

firstly though i agree that western culture projects notions of romance, i don't believe that it is confined to the west.

Secondly and similarly, i believe that western culture is no different in projecting notions of physical beauty. Indeed romance and beauty are often combined.

Thirdly if a culture is projecting things upon us it is by definition different to what you project upon yourself. (whatever that means?). To go against your culture is understandably very difficult at times. That is why I also say that spirituality has to be found within capitalist democracy. It is often far from obvious. (Also for other cultures too, but because they are usually much less tolerant the relationship to the populace is different.)

Fourthly, the biological perspective presents another perspective upon beauty that is not only cross cultural, but cross species. To go against your biological instincts is also very difficult, and is another aspect of the spiritual quest.

Fifthly, that beauty is cross cultural (albeit often very differently by comparison) shows that physical beauty is fundamental to being human. The question that is immediately asked is therefore "Is beauty spiritual or just animal?"

Now we have all agreed that it is spiritual except notably emotional, but unlike you and carol, i recognise a real difficulty in finding the relationship between beauty and the spirit. I respect emotional's rejection of even discussing this issue more than i do yours and carols, (as i understand your positions at the moment) because the two of you claim that beauty is just lovely and spiritual and 'natural' and causes no problems ......... with respect to our loving relationships let alone with banal and evil people. You andy even go on to claim that it has no effect upon human potential generally within capitalist culture except as a self imposed block.

Now i really respect people who are not beautiful and make it, especially in our media soaked and biased culture. Which is in itself to note that beauty is often a factor in our (and other) cultures, as opposed to yourself.

I would also re assert what i think for me has become a parallel between spirituality and physical beauty, and science and subjectivity.

Subjectivity is a 'knotty' thing for the scientist. They can't say it doesn't exist, yet science claims that all things can be seen objectively. We can also point out to the scientist that the appreciation of science is itself subjective.

Physical beauty is similarly 'knotty' with respect to spirituality. We can't deny that beauty does not exist in the spiritual context, yet spirituality is all about beauty not being skin deep. We can also point out to the spiritual person that the appreciation and portrayal of spiritual images of religious beings are nearly always physically beautiful.

I deeply respect my friends spiritual dillemma as an aspect of the challenge that physical beauty presents us. You do not. You see him as having neccessarily made a mistake due to a self imposed romantic blockage.

The nature of physical beauty is not purely self imposed. It is strangely universal despite its relativity, and often not easy to reconcile in the spiritual context. Love, spirituality and beauty get mixed up. (as you and carol have expressed in your choice of language in previous posts.)

andy_d

I tend to think that everything gets mixed up

And yes, I do think your friend is the author of his own misery, even if it isn't his fault. Would he have a problem if he was blind? No.* It's not her that's the problem, it's the way he sees her.

Harsh, but IMO, true. We are all the biggest barrier to our own happiness. Our stiff ideas, biases, and misconceptions trip us up whatever way we turn.

*Just look at Stevie Wonder's wife. She's hideous, but luckily for Stevie he's blind and so wasn't bothered. I envy him that.

BTW:

That's not quite what I said. I said it has no effect on human potential as an absolute. I didn't say anything about culture. That's a different subject again. I wrote it in response to this from you:

"But i have met many physically beautiful people that are really nasty and ignorant. Surely you guys can see what i am getting at? When you meet someone whose physical presence is breath taking........... yet they are spiritually dark or shallow"

Which seems to indicate that you believe a person's physical beauty somehow restricts them from personal growth. How could this possibly be so? It affects how they are socialised, but not their potential.

leyline

andy

well if nothing else at least you now agree that we are not thinking along the same lines.

incidentally i do not believe that physical beauty necessarily restricts a persons 'growth', any more than 'a lack of' necessarily does. But unlike yourself i have the imagination to believe it can be a hurdle in both cases.

andy_d

Actually, the fact that you think it's a hurdle means we are thinking on similar lines

I think perhaps we just disagree on the source of the hurdle.

Actually, I think one of us has misunderstood the other's position. Your post above your last seemed like you were trying to refute a whole lot of claims that you thought i'd made, when actually I hadn't. Perhaps if I quickly address them we can come a bit closer to understanding each other:

1) I agree

2) I agree

3) Yes and no. The source of the bias is external, but it's implemented and enforced internally. Who else would do so?

4) Agreed, but how is this relevant?

5) You admit that standards are different. All that proves is that human beings all share the concept of "value", but differ on what is considered valuable. Not that that has anything to do with our discussion.

So you've left me a little confused. All these don't seem to be refuting anything i've said. Hence my suspicion that we have our wires crossed.

From what you're saying I still think we're saying very similar things, although you keep asserting we're not.

leyline

andy

"It's romance which I said was a negative artificial construct, not beauty."

i completely disagree with this. I do not see romance as a negative artificial construct.

"And yes, I do think your friend is the author of his own misery, even if it isn't his fault. "

again i completely disagree. He is not the author of his dilemma in my opinion and further to say so is a vastly different spiritual position from me generally.

you also cannot even see how my fourth and fifth points relate to the discussion at all!, whereas for me they are fundamental to the understanding of my friends dilemma, and inform the spiritual debate generally when some aspects of ourselves clash with our animal nature. Particularily our sexuality which is highly influenced by physical beauty. That after all was exactly the cause of my friends problem. You also seem to have missed the point that my friend would really liked to have at least been very close friends, but he felt that to have sexual relationships with others would have upset her as much as himself. But then presumably this was just another self imposed block in your view.

Your example of Stevie Wonders wife and how blindness relates to the debate verges on the bizarre and ..... well distasteful actually. I do not envy him his blindness.

Believe me we are light years apart and if you cannot see that then i consider it your loss. I do not envy you in thinking that we are similar with regard to our views of spirituality and physical beauty.

Carol Massey

Let's see, if I have this right, Leyline said, "But i have met many physically beautiful people that are really nasty and ignorant. Surely you guys can see what i am getting at? When you meet someone whose physical presence is breath taking........... yet they are spiritually dark or shallow"

I understand your statement Leyline as I think you intended it, and is precisely why I responded about my own experience of hidden insecurities and low self-esteem behind my pearly whites and a"to die for tan" (back in the days when tans were sexually attractive), as well as my lipstick glimmering red to attract a mate. I was never shallow, but I was unconscious as hell, and heeded the call of the wild (instincts). Pretty typical for a young woman who was of the generation that ushered in 'sexual freedom', marijuana, James Brown, the Beatles, and Elvis Presley.

We were ground breakers, freedom marchers, anti-VietNam war ralliers, and New-Agers with a vision and a dream of PEACE....

Few of us accomplished very much at all for all our idealism, but we made the ground fertile for others that came after: the likes of which can think more freely today.... so I wonder that with your idea of "the spiritual" being something that is 'to be attained'... rather than recognized as being fully corporeal here and now, that perhaps you, like all the ones before you, have your idyllic vision, too. If you are very fortunate and live long enough, you will find that your dreams are shattered, and then you may get on with figuring out what life and living is all about. A good place to start is with your animal. It can teach you things that the airey-fairy spirit cannot. But it will then put you in a position to relate what you learn back to the Wholly Spirit of Life, and if you learn Compassion and share that knowledge with the Spirit of all of us, then you will laugh at the idea of "Love".

I wonder if your friend ever realized or thought about the idea that his friend's sense of self and her well-being might not have been measured by his presence, or absence. or his sexual fidelity. Sounds to me like she must be a wise and whole person. Your friend's concern is really about himself, whether or not he wants to admit....we rarely do when it involves recognizing our own insecurities. So, he gets no pat on the back from me for shying away from the gift that this fine woman held out to him...if he is lucky, another will offer him another opportunity, should he decide to plunge into life.

And: I still wear red glimmering lipstick to attract a mate, and it still works...