Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jojo-sa · 02-01-2002, 04:15 AM

Who does not agree with this statement?

Even mr carrier had his beginings from there.

Why do atheists ( from Christian origin) then assume all ideas concerning God are false and take up this stance since their own words they say we were sharp enough to see the error in christianity?

Why paint everything with the same brush???

HelenM · 02-01-2002, 04:40 AM

jojo-sa

Can you not see that the reasons for which most people here who reject Christianity, do so, would equally make them reject Islam?

Like, all people who don't believe in YOUR religion are going to be eternally tormented no matter how 'good' they are, as people - i.e. how they treat others, etc.

Like, if there really were a transcendent omniscient, omnipotent, personal God, He sure ought to be doing a better job of running the universe.

I don't believe you have answers to these objections that would work one hair better than the answers the Christians have.

And please don't tell me I have to understand the whole context like you did about the 'dress code of women believers in Islam'.

I call that - evasion

I know Christianity well enough to know what Christians say about Islam vs Christianity. Christianity is a religion of grace, one where God did all that was needed to be done. Complete forgiveness is available and assurance of eternal life, beginning now and never ending. You can't 'fall out' of eternal life any more than you can earn it, having accepted the offer of it...(that's the form of Christianity I've always been part of - not the - 'one serious sin and you're out!' versions - it's more consistent that you can't lose what you never earned, imo, than that you can...)

I know what they say; I know I don't know much about Islam; but from the point of view of Sec Web, why would an atheist with the objections I wrote above, be any more receptive to Islam than Christianity (or Judaism, in fact)...am I wrong? Do you, in fact, have better answers than the Christians, from a Sec Web point of view???

Please answer

love
Helen

jojo-sa · 02-01-2002, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Like, all people who don't believe in YOUR religion are going to be eternally tormented no matter how 'good' they are, as people - i.e. how they treat others, etc.

All people that dont submit to God will be tormented . Thats what it says. Whether there is a GOD this is another topic.

Quote:

And please don't tell me I have to understand the whole context like you did about the 'dress code of women believers in Islam'.

I call that - evasion

read the not i sent it sure is not evasion. did you read it that is the question???

Quote:

I know what they say; I know I don't know much about Islam;

Exactly my point you know nothing of Islam so cannot judge it.

lastly the thread is not about Islam i was merely stating that the fact that christianity may have a system with flaws does not mean there is no GOD.

That is the point Christianity is not the only answer to GOD.

Why for that matter are you atheist. if you say well cos i cannot prove it then this is something i can follow.

but if you say there is no GOd because some religions say people will be punished, then this is a not a reason.

jojo-sa · 02-01-2002, 05:16 AM

i repost my "evasive " answer for all infidels to judge.

My questoin on this thread is not about this but helen claims this was evasive to her question.

so please still answer the question of the thread.

thanks

posted January 31, 2002 04:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember Islam is a complete system. To understand the dress code one has to see how it fits into the whole picture.
Simply to answer your question without background is a waste of time, however sice you do i will .

[24:30]Quran
30. Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them. Verily, Allah is All-Aware of what they do.
[24:31]
31. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands....

what is juyubihinna? and what is apparent

read

"What is the ruling regarding a woman's wearing a scarf on her head?
Ans. That is not enough - she has to wear a 'khimaar' which covers the head and chest. The scarf is not loose fitting and does not cover enough.
Should not the shoulders also be covered by it?
Yes, that is the 'khimaar'. It is a wide cover covering the head and shoulders. When we say that it covers the chest, then it covers the shoulders since it is wide.

Many people hold that the khimaar' is a covering for the face.
Ans. That is ignorance with regard to the language. The 'khimaar' is a covering for the head and the man also wears the khimaar - putting it upon his head - the same as for the woman. He ta'aala said:
WALYADRIBNA BIKHUMURIHINNA 'ALAA JUYOOBIHINNA
If the khimaar covered the face then He ta'aala would not say WALYADRIBNA meaning pull/draw together, but he would have said "let fall" [ using the verb 'sadala' ]. This is ignorance regarding the language."

Remember the islamic society is based around people showing respect for each other. In the same way a man has also to cover himself to a somewhat lesser degree. (we all know men are more visual than woman) Also it covers the aspect that both men and woman should protect there eyes. ie.lower the gaze.

You have mentioned this in your posts as well that you prefer to to be respected as a woman not an object of what you look like.

Remember for you two understnd this you need understand many other aspects of islamic society.

remember these are guidelines as well. look at the words of Quran Say to the believing woman. not all woman must wear this and that.

as for your second question it is not up to me to say if you will go to hell or not.

funny how non muslims always ask this same questions and always fail to look into why and the whole picture before passing judgement.

in my experience many women did not actually really think about things really.

example the same non muslim woman who says . "i want to wear anything i want "is the same woman who gets angry when her man or partner or husband admires another girl wearing what she wants. is this not hypocracy?

like if a sexy girl walks by in a tanga and your partner stares too long the woman normally gets angry.

yes some will say its up to the woman to trust the man and the man not to do that.
yes, islam covers those too.
it says lower your gaze, and also it says the husband is the cover or protector of the wife and vice versa, which means to protect and cover is also means not to hurt feelings and make the partner jealous .and cover also indicates that no one is perfect , we all make mistakes and its not for the partner to pass judgement on the other partner for mistakes made. we should help each other to uplift each other and show patience when we make mistakes .

Islam looks at this particular problem from both sides. lower your gaze and watch what you wear.in a similar way the things we wear all tie into the complete system of islam

about the briliance of the clothes and what should be worn this can be discussed as well, for now i just want to point out that nuns in general wear what is described in the Quran. nobody seem to say they are oppressed. they are more likely respected

also in corinthians new testament

1 Corinthians 11
Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6 For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil

it shows that woman should cover or wear a veil

Hope you have a small picture .

to get it all takes a bit more reading
Iqraq( read), the answer to it all question

peace

HelenM · 02-01-2002, 06:09 AM

jojo-sa

You have not even tried to tell me how Islam better answers the two objections to theism than Christianity, that I listed in this thread.

Does that mean you think it has no better answers to them than Christianity?

I am not an atheist, by the way!

love
Helen

scombrid · 02-01-2002, 06:31 AM

What I get from that passage on Islamic Dress code is that Muslims have the same problem with self control as Christians. They beleive lust is wrong and an insurmountable temptation. Therefore they must cover up to maintain their dignity and avoid temptation. They then take these made up God mandates for behavior and make them law. If they are God's laws, why does the government need to enforce them? Shouldn't God have things under control?

As for the nun's dress being like the dress of Islamic women. Nuns dress that way by CHOICE so they aren't oppressed. Additionally, many sects don't even wear the traditional habit.

It appears to me from what you have presented here that the Islamic idea of God is just as petty as the xtian since it supposes to micromanage lives. I dare wager at this point that I have the same problems with islamic belief as the others that I have investigated. Actually my broad NOGOD brush applies to all revealed religions as far as I know them.

BTW. Does Allah have the same foreskin obsession as Yahweh?

phlebas · 02-01-2002, 06:52 AM

While this is interesting in a bang-your-head-against-the-wall kinda way, I think there's a better forum for it.

02-01-2002, 04:15 AM	#1
jojo-sa Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: europe Posts: 111	Christianity = breeder of some atheists... Who does not agree with this statement? Even mr carrier had his beginings from there. Why do atheists ( from Christian origin) then assume all ideas concerning God are false and take up this stance since their own words they say we were sharp enough to see the error in christianity? Why paint everything with the same brush???

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02-01-2002, 04:40 AM	#2
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	jojo-sa Can you not see that the reasons for which most people here who reject Christianity, do so, would equally make them reject Islam? Like, all people who don't believe in YOUR religion are going to be eternally tormented no matter how 'good' they are, as people - i.e. how they treat others, etc. Like, if there really were a transcendent omniscient, omnipotent, personal God, He sure ought to be doing a better job of running the universe. I don't believe you have answers to these objections that would work one hair better than the answers the Christians have. And please don't tell me I have to understand the whole context like you did about the 'dress code of women believers in Islam'. I call that - evasion I know Christianity well enough to know what Christians say about Islam vs Christianity. Christianity is a religion of grace, one where God did all that was needed to be done. Complete forgiveness is available and assurance of eternal life, beginning now and never ending. You can't 'fall out' of eternal life any more than you can earn it, having accepted the offer of it...(that's the form of Christianity I've always been part of - not the - 'one serious sin and you're out!' versions - it's more consistent that you can't lose what you never earned, imo, than that you can...) I know what they say; I know I don't know much about Islam; but from the point of view of Sec Web, why would an atheist with the objections I wrote above, be any more receptive to Islam than Christianity (or Judaism, in fact)...am I wrong? Do you, in fact, have better answers than the Christians, from a Sec Web point of view??? Please answer love Helen

02-01-2002, 05:16 AM	#4
jojo-sa Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: europe Posts: 111	i repost my "evasive " answer for all infidels to judge. My questoin on this thread is not about this but helen claims this was evasive to her question. so please still answer the question of the thread. thanks posted January 31, 2002 04:54 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember Islam is a complete system. To understand the dress code one has to see how it fits into the whole picture. Simply to answer your question without background is a waste of time, however sice you do i will . [24:30]Quran 30. Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them. Verily, Allah is All-Aware of what they do. [24:31] 31. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands.... what is juyubihinna? and what is apparent read "What is the ruling regarding a woman's wearing a scarf on her head? Ans. That is not enough - she has to wear a 'khimaar' which covers the head and chest. The scarf is not loose fitting and does not cover enough. Should not the shoulders also be covered by it? Yes, that is the 'khimaar'. It is a wide cover covering the head and shoulders. When we say that it covers the chest, then it covers the shoulders since it is wide. Many people hold that the khimaar' is a covering for the face. Ans. That is ignorance with regard to the language. The 'khimaar' is a covering for the head and the man also wears the khimaar - putting it upon his head - the same as for the woman. He ta'aala said: WALYADRIBNA BIKHUMURIHINNA 'ALAA JUYOOBIHINNA If the khimaar covered the face then He ta'aala would not say WALYADRIBNA meaning pull/draw together, but he would have said "let fall" [ using the verb 'sadala' ]. This is ignorance regarding the language." Remember the islamic society is based around people showing respect for each other. In the same way a man has also to cover himself to a somewhat lesser degree. (we all know men are more visual than woman) Also it covers the aspect that both men and woman should protect there eyes. ie.lower the gaze. You have mentioned this in your posts as well that you prefer to to be respected as a woman not an object of what you look like. Remember for you two understnd this you need understand many other aspects of islamic society. remember these are guidelines as well. look at the words of Quran Say to the believing woman. not all woman must wear this and that. as for your second question it is not up to me to say if you will go to hell or not. funny how non muslims always ask this same questions and always fail to look into why and the whole picture before passing judgement. in my experience many women did not actually really think about things really. example the same non muslim woman who says . "i want to wear anything i want "is the same woman who gets angry when her man or partner or husband admires another girl wearing what she wants. is this not hypocracy? like if a sexy girl walks by in a tanga and your partner stares too long the woman normally gets angry. yes some will say its up to the woman to trust the man and the man not to do that. yes, islam covers those too. it says lower your gaze, and also it says the husband is the cover or protector of the wife and vice versa, which means to protect and cover is also means not to hurt feelings and make the partner jealous .and cover also indicates that no one is perfect , we all make mistakes and its not for the partner to pass judgement on the other partner for mistakes made. we should help each other to uplift each other and show patience when we make mistakes . Islam looks at this particular problem from both sides. lower your gaze and watch what you wear.in a similar way the things we wear all tie into the complete system of islam about the briliance of the clothes and what should be worn this can be discussed as well, for now i just want to point out that nuns in general wear what is described in the Quran. nobody seem to say they are oppressed. they are more likely respected also in corinthians new testament 1 Corinthians 11 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6 For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil it shows that woman should cover or wear a veil Hope you have a small picture . to get it all takes a bit more reading Iqraq( read), the answer to it all question peace

02-01-2002, 06:09 AM	#5
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	jojo-sa You have not even tried to tell me how Islam better answers the two objections to theism than Christianity, that I listed in this thread. Does that mean you think it has no better answers to them than Christianity? I am not an atheist, by the way! love Helen

02-01-2002, 06:31 AM	#6
scombrid Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Central Florida Posts: 2,759	What I get from that passage on Islamic Dress code is that Muslims have the same problem with self control as Christians. They beleive lust is wrong and an insurmountable temptation. Therefore they must cover up to maintain their dignity and avoid temptation. They then take these made up God mandates for behavior and make them law. If they are God's laws, why does the government need to enforce them? Shouldn't God have things under control? As for the nun's dress being like the dress of Islamic women. Nuns dress that way by CHOICE so they aren't oppressed. Additionally, many sects don't even wear the traditional habit. It appears to me from what you have presented here that the Islamic idea of God is just as petty as the xtian since it supposes to micromanage lives. I dare wager at this point that I have the same problems with islamic belief as the others that I have investigated. Actually my broad NOGOD brush applies to all revealed religions as far as I know them. BTW. Does Allah have the same foreskin obsession as Yahweh?

02-01-2002, 06:52 AM	#7
phlebas Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Metropolis Posts: 916	While this is interesting in a bang-your-head-against-the-wall kinda way, I think there's a better forum for it.

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