Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Enlighten Me · 04-13-2003, 06:17 PM

How hard would it have been to place signs in cities and to have made announcements on loudspeakers to discourage looters? Rumsfeld and others keep saying that looting was to be expected. If that's the case, then some minimal provisions could have been used to prevent it....

fatherphil · 04-13-2003, 06:34 PM

martial law holds some pretty severe penalties for looters. the military better be equiped and ready to provide policing of a population once it takes a territory. who else did they think was going to step up to do that job?

Loren Pechtel · 04-13-2003, 06:56 PM

You think "Don't loot" signs would make one iota of difference?!?!

Enlighten Me · 04-13-2003, 08:08 PM

No--I think I said the signs should read: Looting Will Not Be Tolerated. Implied threat, at least might have made a difference. Flyers could also have been widely distributed. We could also have made announcements on Iraqi radio since nearly every person owns a radio. We could have used public service announcements, or in some way appealed to the sense of duty of a newly liberated people to ensure order and a peaceful transition. I'm just frustrated that our administration "expected" looting, but had no plan to even attempt to curtail it!!

Soyin Milka · 04-13-2003, 08:47 PM

Hi Enlightened Lady,

I agree with you that more should have been done to prevent looting and general lawlessness. Protecting the hospitals should have been a priority.

My first reaction when you mention "Looting will not be tolerated" signs was: I want one! I have a STOP sign in my apartment. It adds a nice decorative touch, with a pinch of rebellious lawlessness. Anyway, I'm probably biased about this, but I can't help thinking anti-looting signs would have been looted like everything else

Soyin

Enlighten Me · 04-13-2003, 08:51 PM

When you focus on "Anti-looting" signs, then my suggestion looks pretty silly....I offered many ideas for attempting to prevent looting. You would think that at least a few of them could have been used!

Soyin Milka · 04-13-2003, 09:08 PM

Sorry, I'm in a goofy mood, so I focus on the silly details. I did not mean to belittle your suggestions. You're right about flyers. They used them before to incite soldiers not to fight and surrender. They could have used flyers again to invite members of the police forces to report to the americans so they could be organised faster.

I think the looting went beyond what everyone was expecting. If they really thought looting was unpreventable, they could have at least tried to prevent some, warning looters the americans will be paying extra attention to hospitals and museums for exemple. Looters might have been wary to try it then and gone elsewhere instead. Bah.

I still think it would be nice to have a "No looting!" sign in my apartment

Soyin

Ruy Lopez · 04-13-2003, 09:16 PM

If you want an explanation for the severity of looting in Iraqi cities, here's what I think;

1)the 12 years of sanctions made the upper middle, the middle, the lower middle and the poor substantially much poorer. but more important

2)The Iraq situation differs from other violent transitions of power, like those US sponsored or supported events in the 60s, 70s and 80s or other indigenous liberation movements.

Most power struggles have two contending factions within the country such that the victor is already organized and can take charge as its opponent falls. This certainly happen in my country twice in the last 20 years. In Iraq, the opposition is not organized within the country. The actual opposition is the coalition force which is derelict in its duty There are no excuses for this lapse.

A power vacuum caused the explosion of lawlessness. Admonitions, posters etc won't work.

Enlighten Me · 04-13-2003, 09:34 PM

Quote:

I still think it would be nice to have a "No looting!" sign in my apartment

O.K. Soyin. I've settled down a bit and now I'm ready to chuckle at the irony of displaying such a sign in your apartment.

lunachick · 04-13-2003, 09:43 PM

I used to have "STOP THIEF!" poster I stole from a gas station in my house.

I agree that the forces must have known that looting would be out of control, and that they should have planned for it and prevented it. It was totally negligent that they didn't.

04-13-2003, 06:17 PM	#1
Enlighten Me Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Ca. Posts: 1,109	Looting Will Not be Tolerated! How hard would it have been to place signs in cities and to have made announcements on loudspeakers to discourage looters? Rumsfeld and others keep saying that looting was to be expected. If that's the case, then some minimal provisions could have been used to prevent it....

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04-13-2003, 06:34 PM	#2
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	martial law holds some pretty severe penalties for looters. the military better be equiped and ready to provide policing of a population once it takes a territory. who else did they think was going to step up to do that job?

04-13-2003, 06:56 PM	#3
Loren Pechtel Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Not Mayaned Posts: 96,752	You think "Don't loot" signs would make one iota of difference?!?!

04-13-2003, 08:08 PM	#4
Enlighten Me Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Ca. Posts: 1,109	No--I think I said the signs should read: Looting Will Not Be Tolerated. Implied threat, at least might have made a difference. Flyers could also have been widely distributed. We could also have made announcements on Iraqi radio since nearly every person owns a radio. We could have used public service announcements, or in some way appealed to the sense of duty of a newly liberated people to ensure order and a peaceful transition. I'm just frustrated that our administration "expected" looting, but had no plan to even attempt to curtail it!!

04-13-2003, 08:47 PM	#5
Soyin Milka Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Absurdistan Posts: 299	Hi Enlightened Lady, I agree with you that more should have been done to prevent looting and general lawlessness. Protecting the hospitals should have been a priority. My first reaction when you mention "Looting will not be tolerated" signs was: I want one! I have a STOP sign in my apartment. It adds a nice decorative touch, with a pinch of rebellious lawlessness. Anyway, I'm probably biased about this, but I can't help thinking anti-looting signs would have been looted like everything else Soyin

04-13-2003, 08:51 PM	#6
Enlighten Me Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Ca. Posts: 1,109	When you focus on "Anti-looting" signs, then my suggestion looks pretty silly....I offered many ideas for attempting to prevent looting. You would think that at least a few of them could have been used!

04-13-2003, 09:08 PM	#7
Soyin Milka Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Absurdistan Posts: 299	Sorry, I'm in a goofy mood, so I focus on the silly details. I did not mean to belittle your suggestions. You're right about flyers. They used them before to incite soldiers not to fight and surrender. They could have used flyers again to invite members of the police forces to report to the americans so they could be organised faster. I think the looting went beyond what everyone was expecting. If they really thought looting was unpreventable, they could have at least tried to prevent some, warning looters the americans will be paying extra attention to hospitals and museums for exemple. Looters might have been wary to try it then and gone elsewhere instead. Bah. I still think it would be nice to have a "No looting!" sign in my apartment Soyin

04-13-2003, 09:16 PM	#8
Ruy Lopez Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Manila Posts: 5,516	If you want an explanation for the severity of looting in Iraqi cities, here's what I think; 1)the 12 years of sanctions made the upper middle, the middle, the lower middle and the poor substantially much poorer. but more important 2)The Iraq situation differs from other violent transitions of power, like those US sponsored or supported events in the 60s, 70s and 80s or other indigenous liberation movements. Most power struggles have two contending factions within the country such that the victor is already organized and can take charge as its opponent falls. This certainly happen in my country twice in the last 20 years. In Iraq, the opposition is not organized within the country. The actual opposition is the coalition force which is derelict in its duty There are no excuses for this lapse. A power vacuum caused the explosion of lawlessness. Admonitions, posters etc won't work.

04-13-2003, 09:43 PM	#10
lunachick Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NZ Posts: 7,895	I used to have "STOP THIEF!" poster I stole from a gas station in my house. I agree that the forces must have known that looting would be out of control, and that they should have planned for it and prevented it. It was totally negligent that they didn't.

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