Freethought & Rationalism Archive

randman · 03-06-2002, 06:24 PM

I can't live here 24/7. I posted a lot when noone was posting and now there is no way to answer every idea.
So maybe I can limit the discussion to one area at a time for my part, beginning with the fossil record. If ya'll want to convince me, try the following exercise.
Let's play fill in the blanks. "Archaeopteryx" is supposedly a transitional form.
Please state the 5 preceding species and the 5 subsequent species in the transition.
Please also state the when and where these transitions took place.
Also, there should be some type of estimates for the number of mutations needed between each species. In other words, what are the differences between each step and what genetic mutations could cause those differences.
Maybe lay it out like this.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.Archaeopteryx
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
Just fill in the blanks.

Kosh · 03-06-2002, 06:27 PM

Please fill in the blanks on creation. Indicate
what was created on each day. Give examples, and
supply scriptural support. Please show all work.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.

Late_Cretaceous · 03-06-2002, 06:33 PM

Randman, that is a strawman if I ever saw one. And you didnt answer Mr. Darwin's question. BTW, you don't need to be here 24/7 for that.

There are several feathered dromeasaurid dinosaurs that show a definite transition from dinosaur to bird. THere are also several birds which retain teeth, wing claws, long tails, etc like their dinosaur ancestors. They do not represent a linear transition however. Instead what we see are a few snapshots from a family album.

randman · 03-06-2002, 06:40 PM

Look, the way I see it, I put myself on the line here. If you could fill in the blanks, I would have to do some serious rethinking of my position.
So please do.
How can you claim something is transitional without filling in the blanks?

Kosh · 03-06-2002, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by randman:
<strong>If you could fill in the blanks, I would have to do some serious rethinking of my position.
</strong>

Unlikely.

Valentine Pontifex · 03-06-2002, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by randman:
<strong>Look, the way I see it, I put myself on the line here. If you could fill in the blanks, I would have to do some serious rethinking of my position.
So please do.
How can you claim something is transitional without filling in the blanks?</strong>

I answered the "fill in the blanks" bit for birds in another thread.

If we can fill those blanks, you would have to do some serious rethinking? Well start rethinking. The subject is mammals. And for the transition from reptiles and mammals is extremely well documented to the point that it is completely arbitrary to say were the reptiles end and the mammals begin.

Kevin Dorner · 03-06-2002, 07:14 PM

That would take hours of research and cross-referencing to correctly answer your question, randman, and then you'd turn around and deny it in a trice and all the effort would be for nought. This is why I don't debate with creationists, and once I see that they're out to make "converts" and that their questions are not genuine, I give up on them. Luckily for the state of education in this world, more talented and more educated folks than I have far more patience.

You still haven't answered my query from before. Here's a little list of my own:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

I don't believe in the sun. I need convincing. Give me five reasons that you think it does, so that I can apply the same treatment to your answers that you do to those that answer your questions, to let you know how frustrating it is.

Valentine Pontifex · 03-06-2002, 07:18 PM

Lets fill in the blanks for the mammal/mammal-like reptiles clade:

Here is a cladogram (<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/1636/synapsida/index.html" target="_blank">source</a>):
[code]
Synapsida
|--Caseasauria
| |--Eothyrididae
| `--Caseidae
`--Eupelycosauria
|--Varanopseidae
`--+--Ophiacodontidae
`--+--Edaphosauridae
`--Sphenacodontia
|--Haptodus
`--+--Palaeonatteria
`--+--Pantelosaurus
`--+--Cutleria
`--+--Sphenacodontidae
`--Therapsida

</pre>[/quote]

The last entry is the Therapsida, and cladogram for this clade is (<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/1636/synapsida/therapsida.html" target="_blank">source</a>):

[code]

Therapsida
|?-Tetraceratops
`--+--Biarmosuchia
`--+--+--Eotitanosuchus
| `--Ivantosaurus (?=Eotitanosuchus)
`--Eutherapsida
|--Dinocephalia
| |--Anteosauria
| | |--Stenocybidae
| | `--Anteosauridae
| | |--Syodon
| | `--+--Titanophoneus
| | `--Anteosaurinae
| | |--Doliosauriscus
| | `--Anteosaurus
| `--Tapinocephalia
| |--Styracocephalidae
| |--Estemmosuchidae
| `--+--Titanosuchidae
| `--Tapinocephalidae
`--Neotherapsida
|--Anomodontia
`--Theriodontia
|--Gorgonopsia
`--Eutheriodontia
|--Therocephalia
`--Cynodontia
|--Dvinia
`--+--Procyonsuchidae
`--+--Galesauridae
`--+--Thrinaxodon
`--Eucynodontia
|--Cynognathus
`--Probainognathia
|--Tritylodontoidea
| |--Diademodontidae
| |--Trirachodontidae
| |--Traversodontidae
| `--Tritylodontidae
`--Chiniquodontoidea
|--Chiniquodontidae
|--Tricuspes
|--Eoraetia
|--Kunminia
|--Tritheledontidae
`--+?-Abelobasilus
`--+?-Sinoconodon
|?-Gobiconodontidae
`--Mammalia

</pre>[/quote]

This is more than what you asked for. Of course that we can do it will be a shock for you. Of course I assume that if you are like 95% of creationists, <a href="http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a3g5n4%243do%241%40knossos.btinternet. com" target="_blank">Morton's Demon</a> will find you an excuse not to revaluate your position. :-(

randman · 03-06-2002, 07:22 PM

Evolution is a step by step issue, whether branch or bush. The sun is not.
Fact is guys that you can't fill in the blanks. You know it, and I know it.
Why not just give the reasons you beleive the fossils haven't been found. That would be honest.
Really, I don't care so much if you continue to beleive in evolution as long as you see why rational and intelligent people do not. My beef is with the constant overstatement of evolution.
This species is not transitional, or maybe it is.
We don't really know because similarities are not the same as transitions. You presuppose that they are, but the actual transitions are not shown.
Lord Valentine, I did not see where you did this. If you don't mind, list the specific species in the order and time and such as I asked, and I will be off to do some searching on those species.
Similarites, in my mind, do not equate transitions by themselves.
Like I said before, my paintings are similar, but they do not evolve.

randman · 03-06-2002, 07:26 PM

OK, Lord Valentine, now help me out a little. What are some the common names of some of these creatures, and when did they exist, and what changes are between the species.
Don't do so much as that will take too much time. You are welcome to narrow it down to a chain of 7 species. List them, if you don't mind, with the places roughly where the fossils have been found, and such, and then I will go and research them.
I am serious by the way.

03-06-2002, 06:24 PM	#1
randman Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 333	some of you have complained I haven't responded I can't live here 24/7. I posted a lot when noone was posting and now there is no way to answer every idea. So maybe I can limit the discussion to one area at a time for my part, beginning with the fossil record. If ya'll want to convince me, try the following exercise. Let's play fill in the blanks. "Archaeopteryx" is supposedly a transitional form. Please state the 5 preceding species and the 5 subsequent species in the transition. Please also state the when and where these transitions took place. Also, there should be some type of estimates for the number of mutations needed between each species. In other words, what are the differences between each step and what genetic mutations could cause those differences. Maybe lay it out like this. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6.Archaeopteryx 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. Just fill in the blanks.

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03-06-2002, 06:27 PM	#2
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	Please fill in the blanks on creation. Indicate what was created on each day. Give examples, and supply scriptural support. Please show all work. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6.

03-06-2002, 06:33 PM	#3
Late_Cretaceous Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Alberta Posts: 1,049	Randman, that is a strawman if I ever saw one. And you didnt answer Mr. Darwin's question. BTW, you don't need to be here 24/7 for that. There are several feathered dromeasaurid dinosaurs that show a definite transition from dinosaur to bird. THere are also several birds which retain teeth, wing claws, long tails, etc like their dinosaur ancestors. They do not represent a linear transition however. Instead what we see are a few snapshots from a family album.

03-06-2002, 06:40 PM	#4
randman Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 333	Look, the way I see it, I put myself on the line here. If you could fill in the blanks, I would have to do some serious rethinking of my position. So please do. How can you claim something is transitional without filling in the blanks?

03-06-2002, 07:14 PM	#7
Kevin Dorner Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 762	That would take hours of research and cross-referencing to correctly answer your question, randman, and then you'd turn around and deny it in a trice and all the effort would be for nought. This is why I don't debate with creationists, and once I see that they're out to make "converts" and that their questions are not genuine, I give up on them. Luckily for the state of education in this world, more talented and more educated folks than I have far more patience. You still haven't answered my query from before. Here's a little list of my own: 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. I don't believe in the sun. I need convincing. Give me five reasons that you think it does, so that I can apply the same treatment to your answers that you do to those that answer your questions, to let you know how frustrating it is.

03-06-2002, 07:18 PM	#8
Valentine Pontifex Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Orion Arm of the Milky Way Galaxy Posts: 3,092	Lets fill in the blanks for the mammal/mammal-like reptiles clade: Here is a cladogram (<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/1636/synapsida/index.html" target="_blank">source</a>): [code] Synapsida \|--Caseasauria \| \|--Eothyrididae \| `--Caseidae `--Eupelycosauria \|--Varanopseidae `--+--Ophiacodontidae `--+--Edaphosauridae `--Sphenacodontia \|--Haptodus `--+--Palaeonatteria `--+--Pantelosaurus `--+--Cutleria `--+--Sphenacodontidae `--Therapsida </pre>[/quote] The last entry is the Therapsida, and cladogram for this clade is (<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/1636/synapsida/therapsida.html" target="_blank">source</a>): [code] Therapsida \|?-Tetraceratops `--+--Biarmosuchia `--+--+--Eotitanosuchus \| `--Ivantosaurus (?=Eotitanosuchus) `--Eutherapsida \|--Dinocephalia \| \|--Anteosauria \| \| \|--Stenocybidae \| \| `--Anteosauridae \| \| \|--Syodon \| \| `--+--Titanophoneus \| \| `--Anteosaurinae \| \| \|--Doliosauriscus \| \| `--Anteosaurus \| `--Tapinocephalia \| \|--Styracocephalidae \| \|--Estemmosuchidae \| `--+--Titanosuchidae \| `--Tapinocephalidae `--Neotherapsida \|--Anomodontia `--Theriodontia \|--Gorgonopsia `--Eutheriodontia \|--Therocephalia `--Cynodontia \|--Dvinia `--+--Procyonsuchidae `--+--Galesauridae `--+--Thrinaxodon `--Eucynodontia \|--Cynognathus `--Probainognathia \|--Tritylodontoidea \| \|--Diademodontidae \| \|--Trirachodontidae \| \|--Traversodontidae \| `--Tritylodontidae `--Chiniquodontoidea \|--Chiniquodontidae \|--Tricuspes \|--Eoraetia \|--Kunminia \|--Tritheledontidae `--+?-Abelobasilus `--+?-Sinoconodon \|?-Gobiconodontidae `--Mammalia </pre>[/quote] This is more than what you asked for. Of course that we can do it will be a shock for you. Of course I assume that if you are like 95% of creationists, <a href="http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a3g5n4%243do%241%40knossos.btinternet. com" target="_blank">Morton's Demon</a> will find you an excuse not to revaluate your position. :-(

03-06-2002, 07:22 PM	#9
randman Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 333	Evolution is a step by step issue, whether branch or bush. The sun is not. Fact is guys that you can't fill in the blanks. You know it, and I know it. Why not just give the reasons you beleive the fossils haven't been found. That would be honest. Really, I don't care so much if you continue to beleive in evolution as long as you see why rational and intelligent people do not. My beef is with the constant overstatement of evolution. This species is not transitional, or maybe it is. We don't really know because similarities are not the same as transitions. You presuppose that they are, but the actual transitions are not shown. Lord Valentine, I did not see where you did this. If you don't mind, list the specific species in the order and time and such as I asked, and I will be off to do some searching on those species. Similarites, in my mind, do not equate transitions by themselves. Like I said before, my paintings are similar, but they do not evolve.

03-06-2002, 07:26 PM	#10
randman Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 333	OK, Lord Valentine, now help me out a little. What are some the common names of some of these creatures, and when did they exist, and what changes are between the species. Don't do so much as that will take too much time. You are welcome to narrow it down to a chain of 7 species. List them, if you don't mind, with the places roughly where the fossils have been found, and such, and then I will go and research them. I am serious by the way.

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