seebs

Oh, man, that's awful.

I just have one question for your wife. Who the FUCK is she to say how it's "supposed" to be? Isn't that supposed to be God's job? And didn't He say to stick with the non-believing spouse? Maybe she should have some of this fucking "faith" she's always talking about.

Er. Am I getting angry too now? *sigh*.

I can understand when atheists talk about "how it's supposed to be" in terms of their world view; I mean, it's a human trait to judge the world and wish to see it different. I can't understand it coming from her.

I wonder what, exactly, she thinks is "not how it's supposed to be". Perhaps she's convinced that it's her calling in life to bring you back to faith; she'll tell you the Truth, and give of rays of light, and her sincerity touches your heart and you believe. But that's not how it works, and I don't think it's *supposed* to be.

Doesn't her religion teach that God made you? Shouldn't she believe this, and think that, for whatever reason, God thought one of you was a good idea, and maybe she should trust His judgement?

I'm not trying to tell *you* to believe this; I'm expressing surprise that her beliefs don't tell her this. Hope I'm not crossing the SL&S line.

brighid

Vicar,

Thank you. Feel free to borrow in part, or in full, any part of that you want the next time you have THEE DISCUSSION. Perhaps you could benefit from a poster with a large X on it with a caption that states, “BANG HEAD HERE.” I think it would be less painful then this situation. It’s too bad I don’t know your wife because I would be more then happy to sit her down and smack her squarely upside the head … figuratively of course … and tell her she is being an unreasonable fool and giving wives all over the world a bad name. Or she could come to my Kickboxing class and I could punish her through an aggressive workout specifically aimed at redirecting her anger and spite toward me! I have a love/hate relationship with my students and I really enjoy saying, “Drop and give me 20” when my students aren’t paying attention or they are getting out of line! I’d make her do them on her knuckles.

Really, I am just so bothered that anyone would treat their spouse this way over something this truly trivial, even if she doesn’t see if that way. She needs to be reminded of the not-exclusively Christian parable of walking a mile in another’s shoes and what if it were SHE he came to this conclusion and you treated her as she is treating you, as the allegedly, morally superior Christian possessed of the goodness of Christ... how the hell would she feel? She should be ashamed of herself and her very crappy behavior. Indeed – WWJD?

She has a husband, who other then his disbelief in God has been a good, faithful, kind man for 15 years. Suggest she do some Christian volunteer work at a Battered Women’s shelter so she can get a reality check about just what’s it like to have a bad husband, many of whom are Bible believing, God fearing, Christian men. I could tell her some lovely stories about the Good Christian man, father of my child, piece of shit who did all sorts of criminal, vile, evil things. She needs to figure out that character is not defined by belief and even Christian husbands can be otherwise pieces of crap unworthy of a loving, devoted wife and beautiful children.

Brighid

HelenM

VP I hope you will ask the pastor directly whether he thinks it's reasonable of her to say she'll want a divorce if you don't return home from seeing him, converted.

And if he says yes then I'll be very sorry I ever thought that going to help for help with your marriage was a good idea.

But I'm very much hoping he'll say "No way!" and support the idea that there's another way besides arguing and divorce, regardless of whether you're an atheist or not.

take care
Helen

BadBadBad

Aaaah, I feel much better now! Thanks brighid!

seebs

The shelter volunteer idea is a very good one. I think her complaints about how her loving and supportive spouse doesn't believe in God would fall on ears temporarily deaf from having been pummeled.

BadBadBad

I don't think you're crossing the line at all Seebs! I think we're all in agreement here. Can you say hypocrite? Don't reject what I think the Bible says you should believe, even though I get to reject what ever I want! Well pretty much the whole thing in fact, except that one little I believe thing. Seems like such a minor little deal Darren.

Just tell her you've changed your mind. Tell her you now believe in God. You're now a Darren Christian. Here's the Darren doctrine: You're not going to church. You're not brainwashing the kids, and you're not ever going to pronounce your beliefs to her or anyone else ever again. Tell her you've read Matthew 6, and that's something you can live with.

What has she got left then? Then she's stuck with arguing over who's doctrine is more True Christian. The only thing she's got over you now is the simple statement "I don't believe in God." Just delete the "don't" word ever time she asks, and that ought to just about cover it. Every time she brings it up and accuses you of not being a True Christian, throw it back in her face. Memorize the submissive wife versuses, and slam her to the ground with it. I'll be one when you'll be one.

I'm serious. Play your cards right. Go to the pre-meeting with the Pastor. Instead of arguing with the guy, play the poor lost sheep role. They love that. Tell him you've had all these second thoughts and what not. Use hypocrisy as one of your concerns, and then move on to your marital problems. Tell him that your lost faith is furthered by you're wife's hypocritical reaction. That's a nice lead in to the meeting with your wife.

Now, sit through that thoughtfullly and don't argue with your wife or pastor. Just sit there and play the poor lost sheep. Then come home and keep your mouth shut. If she asks, tell her you have a lot to think about. Don't discuss it with her. Then after a few days tell her you've changed her mind. You can add the piss, puke, and convusive prayer in the name of Jeeesus Amen if you think it might help! Read her Matthew 6, and never talk about religion again to her. If she asks, tell her without hesitating "I (.....) believe in God." There you go!

If she says you're not true christian, you're going to win that every time. She'll never live up to the standard. If she won't, you don't have to. Then read her the sermon Helen gave us about discontentment. Shut up and be happy if you're such True Christian.

I've gone through some of this (even after all I've said, she was never this extreme) and many many times I asked myself, why I didn't just keep my mouth shut and never admit I didn't believe in God. In fact, I didn't for a long time. I just couldn't control myself, and I kept stuttering "I ddoon.... believe in God." Plus, I couldn't defend myself at that time about not going to church. If I had to do it again, IbelieveinGod....IbelieveinGod....IbelieveinGod, Praise Jeeusus....Praise Jeeusus....Praise Jeeusus..... I won't be like the hypocrites in your church, you'll have your reward. Off to my closet I go, where I'll pray for you Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

HelenM

Actually, I sent the link to you because you asked, but Darren didn't ask so I haven't sent it to him.

Helen

seebs

I don't know that I think it's a good idea to lie about belief; old-fashioned though I may be, I don't think it helps in the long run.

That said, I haven't been confronted with someone who couldn't accept something true; maybe my opinion would change.

I think you may have a point, though. Ask her to give you some space for your own personal walk, and maybe she'll give you some. Tell her that the thing you need, if you are ever to resolve your doubts, is some personal space, respect, and time. And maybe she'll give you that, in which case, whether or not your doubts are ever "resolved", you both win, at least in terms of the marriage.

If you can convince her that a good Christian role model who isn't pushy will do better than an annoying and confrontantional bitch, you will be much better off.

BTW, one caveat: If you read too much fine print on the submission stuff, you may come across injunctions that the husband likewise submit to his wife. Be careful, you could be in for a lot of chores.

BadBadBad

I started this thinking why not throw her a bone of hope about some eventual conversion, but I don't think he's getting very far without the "I believe in God." Sounds like he's got about 12 days. Plus, their feelings for each other have taken quite a bashing. Without I believe in God, she's probably not coming back too far on that either. The longer he thinks about it, the worse her feelings are going to get unless she suddenly has an about face. Hope I'm wrong Darren.

This is kind of a bad joke, although I've seriously asked myself at times, if I'd been better off just saying what any of these prying christians want to hear. You are excluded from the prying part Seebs.


We can't go there Seebs, but if you want to step outside ....

Arrowman

My first input to this extraordinary thread. You have my sympathy and support, Vicar - I cannot imagine what you are dealing with here. I would just like to offer two points:

No, absolutely not. Without being closed-minded, I think Vicar is clear in his position and sure in his convictions; he is not going on a "personal walk" and he does not have "doubts to resolve". On the other hand, it seems his wife would very much like to hear that he is just "having doubts" and would, if she accepted this offer, simply expect that it is only a matter of time before he "returns to the fold" - she would not consider any other option.

What you suggest would be reasonable, if the other party were reasonable (I think we're all agreed that condition hasn't been met) and was willing to accept "negative outcome". But in this case it's just deferring the problem - and possibly making it worse later, because when it eventually becomes apparent that Vicar is still and atheist, he will then be (in her eyes) both an atheist and a liar (for having told her there was a chance he might "reconvert").


I agree. I think seeing the pastor is a good idea, assuming his approach will be reasonable. Unfortunately it seems Vicar's wife has the wrong idea about the purpose of this meeting. I understand you (Vicar) will be seeing the pastor alone before the meeting with your wife; this would be a good time to ask the question Helen suggests.

If you confirm that the pastor has the "right" approach, I would advise you not to tell this to your wife or in any way try to prepare her for the "bad news". Let the pastor do that, at the meeting. I don't think she'll take it very well from you, and she'll just go into the meeting (if she goes at all) in an angry and closed-off mood.

If you find that the pastor has the "wrong" approach, I'd still go through with the meeting. Why? I don't know - I just feel that the fallout from you cancelling the meeting at the last minute would be worse than the consequences of going through with it, and then afterwards dealing with the fact that it (in your wife's view) "didn't work".

Also, if the pastor does have the "wrong" approach, please try very hard to find another, more reasonable Christian counsellor (pastor, or community member) to give her some guidance. It seems to me that the only hope is for her to realise how her attitude is not at all "Christian", and the only chance she'll accept this message is if she gets it from another Christian.

Finally - without going back to the start of the thread, I'm guessing that has been going on for - what? 2-3 months? That is not a long time in the world of serious marriage problems, particularly those related to religion. Plus you've got all the other job-related stress etc. Your wife is clearly not being rational at the moment. Whether it is clinical depression, situational depression, or just plain stress, I think you need to get past the current stresses (ie when she gives up the second job etc) and see how much that is a contributor. There is a chance that she might become more reasonable when these things have passed.

Also, I seem to recall that she has pretty much acknowledged that she's got a problem, so hopefully, you might be able to encourage her to get professional help - without making it look like you think that'll "set her right and have her agree with you" in the same way that she seems to think the pastor will set you right.

I don't know what are the odds that if all the stress, depression etc were removed, your wife might be more reasonable, but I do think it must be tried. In other words, it will take time.