Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Farren · 03-20-2003, 02:31 PM

Fenton Mully posted this as a tongue in cheek one-liner on another post but I think it deserves some examination (for believers) :

1. Does a soul have mass?

2. Does it interact with matter in a causal way?

3. If not, how is it not random?

4. Or is it random?

5. And if so, how can we be judged by or have responsibility for our actions?

6. Which qualities of humanity are in the soul and which are in the biological body?

7. Of those sensations with demonstrable biological origin, like panic , anger, bliss, love (from adrenalin, noradrenalin, serotonin etc), which survive death?

8. How do these emotions survive death (does the soul have equivalent mechanisms) ?

9. if the soul has equivalent mechanisms, how do they interact with the physical ones (or do they only kick in after death?) ?

10. Does memory reside in the Soul or the Brain?

11. If the former, why does brain damage often = memory loss. Does part of the soul die and take the memory with it, to be reassembled at a later point?

12. If the latter, does memory survive death?

13. If so, does the soul keep a replica? How does this interact with the physical copy?

14. If not, what sense of identity does one have without any memories?

keyser_soze · 03-20-2003, 02:36 PM

Don't know, but I'm waiting on the delivery guy. I ordered mine an hour ago, ended up finding it at a chinese restaraunt. I was originally unhappy because I had a hunger for fries, but an order of kung pao chicken was free with every soul....so you know....Kind of had to do it.

Honestly though, I agree, will one of the philosophers please clue us in for what a soul is? Personally, I think we all know what it is defined as, and I think the majority know what happens to the man when all the biological circuits start dying. Synaptic death.

03-20-2003, 05:11 PM

Our soul is that part of us that we do not know. This means that to the same extent we know ourself that we know our soul and suggests that if we know ourself we no longer have a soul. In Buddhism the concept niratmya (soulessness) refers to this and is equal to our disappearance of the sea (Rev.21:1).

If our mind has mass our soul has mass. But does it really? It can be said that if our brain has mass our soul has mass because it is the unknown part of our brain.

Yes it interacts with matter in a causal way.

We are responsible because our soul is ours (and we will pay for the sins of our fathers).

6) Cardinal Virtues and Capital Sins are incarnate human qualities.

7)Only quantities are biological and qualities or sensations are not biological. Our qualities are measured responses or capabilities and not quanitfyable.

8)Our soul survives the first death but not the second.

10) Intuition is the memory of our soul.

Farren · 03-22-2003, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Amos
[B]Our soul is that part of us that we do not know. This means that to the same extent we know ourself that we know our soul and suggests that if we know ourself we no longer have a soul. In Buddhism the concept niratmya (soulessness) refers to this and is equal to our disappearance of the sea (Rev.21:1).
[B]

Amos, this Buddist concept as I understand it refers to the fact that the soul is the ego, or illusion of seperateness. Its absence then is the shedding of illusion.

If our mind has mass our soul has mass. But does it really? It can be said that if our brain has mass our soul has mass because it is the unknown part of our brain.

Careful with your terms. The part of the brain that is unkown by the person still has mass. If you're referring to "mind" when you say "brain", this is a conceptual but not a physical distiunction.

Yes it interacts with matter in a causal way.

My real question was "HOW?"

We are responsible because our soul is ours (and we will pay for the sins of our fathers).

Ref the causality questions: If causal then how? If not causal then random. If random then how can we be responsible? If I was a afflicted by a chaos disease that made people around me die at random how would I be responsible?

6) Cardinal Virtues and Capital Sins are incarnate human qualities.

Or labels for such qualities...? Assigning a label to another label does not describe its meaning, purpose or distinction from nonreligious concepts of qualia.

7)Only quantities are biological and qualities or sensations are not biological. Our qualities are measured responses or capabilities and not quanitfyable.

Ref causality q's. How are they measured if not causally?

8)Our soul survives the first death but not the second.

This appears to be a statement of belief and explains nothing.

10) Intuition is the memory of our soul.

Why do children appear to have astonishingly little intuition?

sullster · 03-22-2003, 12:02 PM

I say that a soul is the grand illusion which religion uses to hook the individual. It needs no quantifiable definitions, only the planting of its supposed reality into the mind of the individual. Once the indiviudual accepts the soul idea, he can be terrorised and controlled for life by the religions. The natural fear of death combined with the fate of the illusory "soul", entraps the individual in the web of the theists. It is actually startlingly brilliant on the part of theism and because the soul is unfalsifiable, it can continue to be a means of mental terror for theism's continuance.

Hi Amos.

03-23-2003, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Farren
[B]Originally posted by Amos
[B]Our soul is that part of us that we do not know. This means that to the same extent we know ourself that we know our soul and suggests that if we know ourself we no longer have a soul. In Buddhism the concept niratmya (soulessness) refers to this and is equal to our disappearance of the sea (Rev.21:1).

Amos, this Buddist concept as I understand it refers to the fact that the soul is the ego, or illusion of seperateness. Its absence then is the shedding of illusion.

Hello Farren. If the soul is the ego and we shed the soul/ego that is the seperated part of us, where is it seperated from? I am suggesting that we 'have' a soul while we 'are' ego consciousness and when we understand who we really are we understand our soul. After this [awakeneing] our ego is the illusiory image we once had of ourselves. Notice that this does not change us but only how we perceive ourselves =knowledge frees.

Quote:

Yes it interacts with matter in a causal way.

My real question was "HOW?"

Inner determination. In our soul exists what is called "The Thousand Year" reign. This just means that we are incarnate beings in our soul consciousness and there have stored memories of our ancestors. We call this intuition and so intuit wisdom is the causal interfence of our soul now upon our ego consciousness. In the short distance we are our fathers' son and our grandparents' grandchild and so behavior is incarnate via our soul.

Quote:

We are responsible because our soul is ours (and we will pay for the sins of our fathers).

Ref the causality questions: If causal then how? If not causal then random. If random then how can we be responsible? If I was a afflicted by a chaos disease that made people around me die at random how would I be responsible?

6) Cardinal Virtues and Capital Sins are incarnate human qualities.

Or labels for such qualities...? Assigning a label to another label does not describe its meaning, purpose or distinction from nonreligious concepts of qualia.

If you know the Cardinal Virtues and Capital Sins (I don't) you will find that they are aimed towards 'character building' because they can convict and praise us at any time. All of them are incarnate and this means that we cannot change them 'at will' even if we know that we should and that is why they are called Cardinal virtues and Capital sins. These values are imbedded in our soul and from there affect our rational will to behave in certain ways.

Quote:

8)Our soul survives the first death but not the second.

This appears to be a statement of belief and explains nothing.

It is a religous term (indeed) and makes reference to the crucifixion of our ego consciousness that was the illusion to begin with and can therefore be crucified.

Quote:

10) Intuition is the memory of our soul.

Why do children appear to have astonishingly little intuition?

As babies we can't teach them much but soon after that we try to warp their minds at a very early age with programs such as Sesame Street.

christ-on-a-stick · 03-25-2003, 10:46 AM

But ANYWAY....

One question I've never gotten a good answer from a theist re: souls is, how do they explain the loss of identity experienced by Alzheimer's patients and sometimes people with brain injuries? If the "soul" is the "essence of "who a person is" what happens to the soul when they lose their mind entirely? Does it go into "storage" at some point? That seems so utterly ridiculous but it wouldn't surprise me if some fundies believe it.

Farren · 03-25-2003, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
But ANYWAY....

One question I've never gotten a good answer from a theist re: souls is, how do they explain the loss of identity experienced by Alzheimer's patients and sometimes people with brain injuries? If the "soul" is the "essence of "who a person is" what happens to the soul when they lose their mind entirely? Does it go into "storage" at some point? That seems so utterly ridiculous but it wouldn't surprise me if some fundies believe it.

Thanks COAS for articulating this point so clearly. I wish one of the more methodical apologists here would try to answer it.

And happy birthday

BrotherMan · 03-25-2003, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
One question I've never gotten a good answer from a theist re: souls is, how do they explain the loss of identity experienced by Alzheimer's patients and sometimes people with brain injuries? If the "soul" is the "essence of "who a person is" what happens to the soul when they lose their mind entirely? Does it go into "storage" at some point? That seems so utterly ridiculous but it wouldn't surprise me if some fundies believe it.

My theist answer for that would be something along the lines of: The soul (somehow) uses the body to interact with the physical world. When the machine is broken, the soul can no longer speak (or do) through the person and is trapped, for a lack of better phrase, until the body dies.

With the advances in neurology, it's looking more and more like the drive for something larger than ourselves is all in our head. The zen one-ness with the universe feeling can be recreated by stimulating a part of the brain. (I don't recall more of the details of who, how, when and where this was done, sorry.)

Farren · 03-25-2003, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by BrotherMan

With the advances in neurology, it's looking more and more like the drive for something larger than ourselves is all in our head. The zen one-ness with the universe feeling can be recreated by stimulating a part of the brain. (I don't recall more of the details of who, how, when and where this was done, sorry.)

Its the right frontal parietal lobe, and it produces a generic awed feeling with a dose of "presence" that is interpreted by religious people as the presence of their God/Messiah/Whatever

03-20-2003, 02:31 PM	#1
Farren Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: South Africa Posts: 2,194	What is a Soul? Fenton Mully posted this as a tongue in cheek one-liner on another post but I think it deserves some examination (for believers) : 1. Does a soul have mass? 2. Does it interact with matter in a causal way? 3. If not, how is it not random? 4. Or is it random? 5. And if so, how can we be judged by or have responsibility for our actions? 6. Which qualities of humanity are in the soul and which are in the biological body? 7. Of those sensations with demonstrable biological origin, like panic , anger, bliss, love (from adrenalin, noradrenalin, serotonin etc), which survive death? 8. How do these emotions survive death (does the soul have equivalent mechanisms) ? 9. if the soul has equivalent mechanisms, how do they interact with the physical ones (or do they only kick in after death?) ? 10. Does memory reside in the Soul or the Brain? 11. If the former, why does brain damage often = memory loss. Does part of the soul die and take the memory with it, to be reassembled at a later point? 12. If the latter, does memory survive death? 13. If so, does the soul keep a replica? How does this interact with the physical copy? 14. If not, what sense of identity does one have without any memories?

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03-20-2003, 02:36 PM	#2
keyser_soze Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: god's judge (pariah) Posts: 1,281	Don't know, but I'm waiting on the delivery guy. I ordered mine an hour ago, ended up finding it at a chinese restaraunt. I was originally unhappy because I had a hunger for fries, but an order of kung pao chicken was free with every soul....so you know....Kind of had to do it. Honestly though, I agree, will one of the philosophers please clue us in for what a soul is? Personally, I think we all know what it is defined as, and I think the majority know what happens to the man when all the biological circuits start dying. Synaptic death.

03-20-2003, 05:11 PM	#3
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Our soul is that part of us that we do not know. This means that to the same extent we know ourself that we know our soul and suggests that if we know ourself we no longer have a soul. In Buddhism the concept niratmya (soulessness) refers to this and is equal to our disappearance of the sea (Rev.21:1). If our mind has mass our soul has mass. But does it really? It can be said that if our brain has mass our soul has mass because it is the unknown part of our brain. Yes it interacts with matter in a causal way. We are responsible because our soul is ours (and we will pay for the sins of our fathers). 6) Cardinal Virtues and Capital Sins are incarnate human qualities. 7)Only quantities are biological and qualities or sensations are not biological. Our qualities are measured responses or capabilities and not quanitfyable. 8)Our soul survives the first death but not the second. 10) Intuition is the memory of our soul.

03-22-2003, 11:06 AM	#4
Farren Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: South Africa Posts: 2,194	Originally posted by Amos [B]Our soul is that part of us that we do not know. This means that to the same extent we know ourself that we know our soul and suggests that if we know ourself we no longer have a soul. In Buddhism the concept niratmya (soulessness) refers to this and is equal to our disappearance of the sea (Rev.21:1). [B] Amos, this Buddist concept as I understand it refers to the fact that the soul is the ego, or illusion of seperateness. Its absence then is the shedding of illusion. If our mind has mass our soul has mass. But does it really? It can be said that if our brain has mass our soul has mass because it is the unknown part of our brain. Careful with your terms. The part of the brain that is unkown by the person still has mass. If you're referring to "mind" when you say "brain", this is a conceptual but not a physical distiunction. Yes it interacts with matter in a causal way. My real question was "HOW?" We are responsible because our soul is ours (and we will pay for the sins of our fathers). Ref the causality questions: If causal then how? If not causal then random. If random then how can we be responsible? If I was a afflicted by a chaos disease that made people around me die at random how would I be responsible? 6) Cardinal Virtues and Capital Sins are incarnate human qualities. Or labels for such qualities...? Assigning a label to another label does not describe its meaning, purpose or distinction from nonreligious concepts of qualia. 7)Only quantities are biological and qualities or sensations are not biological. Our qualities are measured responses or capabilities and not quanitfyable. Ref causality q's. How are they measured if not causally? 8)Our soul survives the first death but not the second. This appears to be a statement of belief and explains nothing. 10) Intuition is the memory of our soul. Why do children appear to have astonishingly little intuition?

03-22-2003, 12:02 PM	#5
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	I say that a soul is the grand illusion which religion uses to hook the individual. It needs no quantifiable definitions, only the planting of its supposed reality into the mind of the individual. Once the indiviudual accepts the soul idea, he can be terrorised and controlled for life by the religions. The natural fear of death combined with the fate of the illusory "soul", entraps the individual in the web of the theists. It is actually startlingly brilliant on the part of theism and because the soul is unfalsifiable, it can continue to be a means of mental terror for theism's continuance. Hi Amos.

03-25-2003, 10:46 AM	#7
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	But ANYWAY.... One question I've never gotten a good answer from a theist re: souls is, how do they explain the loss of identity experienced by Alzheimer's patients and sometimes people with brain injuries? If the "soul" is the "essence of "who a person is" what happens to the soul when they lose their mind entirely? Does it go into "storage" at some point? That seems so utterly ridiculous but it wouldn't surprise me if some fundies believe it.

03-25-2003, 06:15 PM	#10
Farren Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: South Africa Posts: 2,194	Originally posted by BrotherMan With the advances in neurology, it's looking more and more like the drive for something larger than ourselves is all in our head. The zen one-ness with the universe feeling can be recreated by stimulating a part of the brain. (I don't recall more of the details of who, how, when and where this was done, sorry.) Its the right frontal parietal lobe, and it produces a generic awed feeling with a dose of "presence" that is interpreted by religious people as the presence of their God/Messiah/Whatever

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