GaryP

It isn't a belief system. But it is something that some of us hold dear. Why are we the ones who have to be quiet when we feel insulted?

Christians have ample opportunity to sing any song they want in their tax-free churches.

And the point is that christians are never asked to deny their god. That was simply meant as an analogy.

Some seem to think that being neutral is being negative. I was trying to point out that to be neutral, in this secular state, schools should either refrain from promoting religion or to organize events where atheists to speak, act or sing about dis-belief.

Or muslims about Islam, etc.

yygke

I have no problem with people speaking up when they feel insulted, but there is a difference between expressing complaint, and suing a school, while halting choir pactices.

Obviously those people haven't learned how to express themselves in a civilized manner. Perhaps making an appointment with the choir director, filing a complaint with the school board, but suing just isn't the correct way to handle that situation.

Also, suing isn't justified in my opinion given the premisies. Maybe they hold their atheism dear to them, but if someone gets their feelings hurt, they don't need to start crying and making a big fuss.

Not everything in life is fair, but organizations like the ACLU seem to cater to a breed of people that either get their way or start suing anything and everything that they can.

In conclusion, I would like to point to one of my earlier remarks:

[abusive and intemperate language deleted]

It makes me sick. What kind of kids are we raising? What kind of example are these parents setting? I just hope that there are still some young people out there that know how to work hard to get ahead, instead of sitting around crying and pissing everyone off when they don't get their way!

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

yygke

GaryP --

I hope you aren't taking any of this anger in personal offense, because I'm not trying to be rude or offensive to you, I am just angry at these students and parents. In fact, I enjoy your arguments.

Toto

Yes, you missed the point. This is not about hurt feelings, it is about the US Constitution. It is about the First Amendment. It is about avoiding an establishment of religion. It is about freedom of conscience. What part of the First Amendment do you not understand???

That's not the point. They could be atheists, agnostics, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, pagans, or any other brand of non-Christian.

So what's that got to do with it? Being forced to mouth words that you think are a lie violates your right to your own beliefs or lack thereof. Just because the girls don't think that they will be subject to divine or magical punishment for violating a religious taboo doesn't mean that they have no rights.

First of all, please refrain from vulgarities, or I may use my power to delete your posts. &lt;moderator scowl on&gt;

Your "logic" (if it can be dignified with that word) would give Christians the right to object to being forced to sing words that they disagree with, while denying that right to anyone else. Exactly how is that fair?

And you should not assume that these students decided to sue without going through the usual avenues of complaint. But in any case, the federal courts are there to protect constitutional rights, and freedom of religion is one of those basic, fundamental rights.

If that makes you angry, you have a problem.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

GaryP

People DO tend to go through the personal route. But speaking from personal experience Atheists tend to be ignored by those in power.

If it weren't for the ACLU and others, the idea of SOCAS would not have a voice at all. The threat of a suit is the only thing keeping the "tyranny of the Majority" from becoming reality.

And I think in the long run this would hurt all Americans including Christians.

yygke

It's to show that atheism isn't a religion and SHOULDN'T cause them any large emotional distress to say something that "violates" it.

You have misinterperated (or perhaps perverted) my point of view to come up with something that you can use to make me look bad or wrong.

I never said that Christians should have special privelages, I was simply pointing out the difference between the current situation and one where Christians are the "victims."

No one is or should be FORCED to sing anything, and they are not. They are given the choice to sign or not but if they don't they risk certain consequences. I think that such a system is fair, however, these people feel that it isn't fair, and they are to spoiled to simply put up with it or take the consequence, so they decide to go suing the school.

[abusive language deleted]

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

yygke

uh oh, now the moderators are deleting posts of someone who is simply making better points than they are. I thought there is something called freedom of speech (especially on an atheist board) but whatever. because the end of my last post was deleted for no reason, i will restate in a less offensive manner to all atheists everywhere:

In conclusion, I think that the individuals involved in this unfortunate lawsuit are ill-informed, abusing their privelege to sue, and that they need to find something more useful to do with their lives, because their behavior resembles that of a ....

[insulting language deleted by Toto]

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

yygke

Whoa, toto's been screwing with all of my posts, not just the last one.

Toto, please don't take out your anger because you lost an argument on the victor, especially when he censors the post before he posts it (I was trying to obey your law).

Toto

Your post was not deleted. I simply deleted the offensive language. Find a more mature manner of expressing yourself.

A person who abuses the privilege of suing is liable for civil penalties. There is no basis for those here.

yygke

(referring to penelties for abuse of suing)

Please back up your blind assertions. I've worked pretty hard to show that they are abusing their suing priveliges, whether or not the laws of the state/nation recognize such abuse.

I don't appreciate your remarks that work to negate my statements without any foundation at all.