Freethought & Rationalism Archive

butswana · 05-02-2002, 12:32 PM

<a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,51745,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,51745,00.html</a>

Toto · 05-02-2002, 02:07 PM

<a href="http://www.aclu.org/news/2002/n040102c.html" target="_blank">ACLU press release</a>

Quote:

. . .
"The Lord's Prayer represents a deeply personal affirmation of faith for millions of Christians worldwide," said Ben Stone, executive director of the ICLU. "The government has no business forcing kids to sing such a prayer. This is about recognizing the dignity of people who don't happen to agree with the majority on a religious matter.”

The ICLU filed the lawsuit on behalf of twins Donovan and Ruby Skarin, who are sophomore members of the high school choir, and their parents, Christine and Donald Skarin, all of Dunlap, Iowa. The lawsuit charges that the practice of requiring students in the choir to sing the prayer violates the religious freedom of choir members. The ICLU is also arguing that including the prayer in the graduation program represents the government endorsement of a particular religious view in violation of the First Amendment.

Donovan and Ruby are suing in order to stop the school from forcing them to sing the prayer, while their parents, who pay taxes in support of the school, are suing to stop the district from spending taxpayer dollars in support of an official, government prayer, as well as to protect their parental right to raise their children free from government religious coercion.

The Skarin twins said they feel uncomfortable being forced to sing the Lord's Prayer. "The prayer which they are having us sing for graduation is basically forcing us to sing praise to a God that we don't even believe in," said Donovan Skarin.

. . .

Today’s legal action represents the fifth time in 20 years the ICLU has been involved in a school prayer lawsuit, although it has been nearly a decade since the ICLU went to court to stop a school-sponsored graduation prayer. The ICLU won in the district court in all five cases.

In 1993, the civil liberties organization won a district court ruling involving the Sheldon and Marcus school districts. On appeal, the case was dismissed on the unrelated issue of standing.

In the 1980s, the ICLU prevailed in three cases. In 1989, the ICLU successfully defended the West Monona school district after it was sued by a minister who wanted to force the district to include a graduation prayer.

In 1985, a federal judge told the Leon school district to drop a graduation prayer after the ICLU brought suit on behalf of a graduating student.

And in 1982, the principal of Thomas Jefferson High School in Council Bluffs was told by a federal judge to stop leading students in prayer at school-sponsored Christmas and Easter services. The plaintiff in that suit, Milton Abramson, received death threats.

To those who believe school-sponsored prayers should be allowed if a majority want them, the ICLU's Stone had this to say: "If we allow a small town to set up an official religion, then religious intolerance will rule. All you have to do is look at the Middle East, Ireland and the Balkans to appreciate how lucky we are in America that we don't allow a religious majority to use the government to coerce religious minorities."

...

trunks2k · 05-02-2002, 04:06 PM

Anybody have a copy of the lyrics to this "song."? Personally, I'd go to the admin and ask them to have the children sing a song of some other deity and see what they say. Five bucks says that they won't even consider letting them sing it.

GaryP · 05-02-2002, 04:45 PM

I've heard it sung. The words are just basically the "lord's prayer" from the bible.
What bothers me is that the plaintiffs have to be kids in the choir. If my kid were graduating or if I were a taxpayer in that district, I would think my complaint would be just as valid.
In this city, choirs sing hymns in churches at xmas time. The High School choir even sang at the Christian TV station a few years ago!
Americans United has told me that this practice is actually legal! At least in the federal district that includes Ohio.

Pseudonymph · 05-02-2002, 04:52 PM

its legal because its sung. It represents culture and the school is supposed "to promote cultures"

crazyfingers · 05-02-2002, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SirenSpeak:
its legal because its sung. It represents culture and the school is supposed "to promote cultures"

You have been reading to much stuff from Pat Robertson's ACLJ.

Sorry. You'll have to do better than that.

mac_philo · 05-02-2002, 05:34 PM

That line of reasoning is a non-starter. Name one religious behavior that isn't cultural.

Bill Snedden · 05-02-2002, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SirenSpeak:
its legal because its sung. It represents culture and the school is supposed "to promote cultures"

Quote:

Originally posted by crazyfingers:
You have been reading to much stuff from Pat Robertson's ACLJ.

Sorry. You'll have to do better than that.

Actually, it is a somewhat valid point. There have been legal rulings that support the use of what might be otherwise considered "sectarian" music by public school choirs when it has the overall purpose of promoting or relating to culture rather than religion.

The obvious example, and the only one of which I am aware that has been used in legal proceedings, is that of Xmas carols and other Xmas-related music. Such music is considered part of the overall Xmas holiday, and therefore primarily cultural, rather than religious.

That said, regardless of whether or not you agree with this stance (IMO it's somewhat dubious), songs performed at graduation ceremonies are simply not analagous. There is no cultural celebration to which the song can possibly be related. This is a blatant violation of the Constitution and should be discontinued. The ACLJ is, as usual, defending Christianity, not religious freedom.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

crazyfingers · 05-02-2002, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden:
The obvious example, and the only one of which I am aware that has been used in legal proceedings, is that of Xmas carols and other Xmas-related music. Such music is considered part of the overall Xmas holiday, and therefore primarily cultural, rather than religious.

However, I would think that it would be pretty easy to draw a wide line between Bingle Bells and Onward Christian Solders.

The Lords Prayer is not a secular holiday song.

GaryP · 05-02-2002, 05:45 PM

My biggest problem with hymns sung by high school choirs is that they are sometimes performed in churches.
This past xmas, the church promoted the event on their web site as a "worship service". And the kids obviously practice these christian songs every school day from September till xmas.
At the very least, these "cultural" songs should be performed in the school auditorium, not in a place of worship with icons all over the walls and a minister welcoming the students.

05-02-2002, 12:32 PM	#1
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	Parent Sues School Over Graduation Tune <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,51745,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,51745,00.html</a>

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05-02-2002, 04:06 PM	#3
trunks2k Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 6,997	Anybody have a copy of the lyrics to this "song."? Personally, I'd go to the admin and ask them to have the children sing a song of some other deity and see what they say. Five bucks says that they won't even consider letting them sing it.

05-02-2002, 04:45 PM	#4
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	I've heard it sung. The words are just basically the "lord's prayer" from the bible. What bothers me is that the plaintiffs have to be kids in the choir. If my kid were graduating or if I were a taxpayer in that district, I would think my complaint would be just as valid. In this city, choirs sing hymns in churches at xmas time. The High School choir even sang at the Christian TV station a few years ago! Americans United has told me that this practice is actually legal! At least in the federal district that includes Ohio.

05-02-2002, 04:52 PM	#5
Pseudonymph Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 813	its legal because its sung. It represents culture and the school is supposed "to promote cultures"

05-02-2002, 05:34 PM	#7
mac_philo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Tax-Exempt Donor, SoP Loyalist Posts: 2,191	That line of reasoning is a non-starter. Name one religious behavior that isn't cultural.

05-02-2002, 05:45 PM	#10
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	My biggest problem with hymns sung by high school choirs is that they are sometimes performed in churches. This past xmas, the church promoted the event on their web site as a "worship service". And the kids obviously practice these christian songs every school day from September till xmas. At the very least, these "cultural" songs should be performed in the school auditorium, not in a place of worship with icons all over the walls and a minister welcoming the students.

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