Blu

Keith,

Certain definitions of "God" say that God requires us to be obediant, to pray, to do this and that. My definition of God does not include that. I have never heard anyone who believes in God say that God created itself.

I believe that God did not create the Universe. I believe that God is the Universe. The Universe is eternal.

There are people's ideas of what God is (creator of the Universe)and then there is another growing idea that God is the Universe. Just two different names and definitions.

I know the common beliefs. I am saying the UNiverse is infinite and that the Universe was not created but always was. Now I want to remind you that this is my relative and subjective truth (spiritual). I am not asking anyone to concur with what I am saying at all.

The eliments within the Universe had a "hand" at the creation of the earth, the sun, the stars, the moon, etc. We have our theories (scientific) on how these things came to be. I see the Universe as being vastly complicated and very organized almost a certain type of intelligence (not anything like what humans think of as intelligent or know of intelligence to be). I do not see chaos. I see a very large vast system. We just do not understand the system and will never understand this system.

I say that the Universe (God) does not want us to really do anything. We are part of what has been created but the Universe does not require anything. I say again that God-Universe (I think I just need to combine these terms so it is understood that I am talking about the spiritual beliefs I have of the Universe)does not have any whims, wants, desires, or anything related to the human condition. A non-human will not have the reality or the desires, emotions, reality, or anything of a human. I say the Universe is intelligent but I am also saying that the Universe isn't like the intelligence in regards to how we apply it to the human mind or animals. But it is an intelligence that we will never really understand and will never fully comprehend. Do you see what I am trying to get at?

I believe God is complicated like the Universe. God is a non-human like the Universe. God is vast and infinite like the Universe. God created all things like the eliments within the Universe. God does not have human emotions or wants and desires or anything related to the human condition like the Universe.

I thought to myself why don't I just call my idea of God, the Universe. I like the word, "Universe" better than God because Christians and other religions use the word, "God" and I don't really agree with other religions' definitions of God. And the word "Universe" just sums it all up for me.

People have a lot of theories about the nature of the Universe etc... just like people have a lot ideas about the nature of God. Who is right? I say no one really will ever know. And no human being will ever know the true nature of the Universe or of God. It is more safer for some people to believe in what ever God-formula religions use to describe God. People also need to give "God" emotions and wants and desires of a human being so they can feel more of a connection with Creation and with life etc. I say, so be it. Do what you have to do.

Blu

By the way, I have an omnipresent theory of the Universe if any one cares to ask me about it. It involves quantum mechanics, energy etc.


Have fun!

Starboy

God is such a difficult topic.

There are several kinds:

1. Creator of the universe, life and everything. (Could be a finite being since universe as we know it is finite)

2. All-powerful being. (Assumed to be an infinite being.)

3. Beings that have specific powers, such as god of war, god of love etc…. (All finite beings.)

4. The transcendent god that is and is not, or the god of the here and now mystical experience. (Beyond finite and infinite.)

There may be more but this is all I can think of.

1. I am a scientist and unless there is evidence to the contrary, only natural explanations will be considered.

2. This is not a testable concept. There is no way to determine if the pencil sitting before me is god. I could be god, GeoTheo you could be god. A concept like this is too powerful to deal with logically. It is beyond reason and science. From a pragmatic point of view it is useless.

3. I lack the imagination to find this type of god attractive or interesting. The practical need for these gods has been replaced long ago with natural scientific explanations.

4. I am not an emotional person. I think of myself as level headed and rational. For me a revelatory experience does not signify any mystical power in the universe. That is just me, but others feel differently. This type of god is probably the most tenable for this time and place.

So for me there are no gods, and if there are, they are not relevant. IMO for Christians, god is most likely to be 1+2. I think when Jesus was talking about god he was referring to 4, but that is not what is taught to all the little Christians. This point of view is supported by combining the three gospels with the gospel of Thomas, a gospel that most Christians don’t know about. Go figure.

Starboy

Autonemesis

Where the Eff is GeoTheo? Effing drive-bys....

Keith Russell

Blu:

Thanks so much for your response.

You and I agree on many things. I, too, believe that the universe is eternal, though I do not believe that it is infinite.

(Eternal means outside of time; unchanging--while infinite means 'beyone all quantity'. I believe the universe is made up of a finite amount of energy, but that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Hence, it is finite, but eternal.)

Yet, how would one know that the universe is also 'God'?

You've only seen one universe. Thus, you can't compaare a 'universe that is also God' with a 'universe that is just a universe', to see which type of universe we inhabit.

So, what about the universe leads you to beleive that it is both the universe, and also God?

Keith.

Blu

Keith,

Let me begin first by thanking you for your cordial responses. I must say your responses are a welcomed surprise compared to how I am usually responded to on this site. You must have advanced social skills! I love it when issues, beliefs, ideas can be discussed in an easy going, non-judgmental manner.

To answer your question, I really had to think back to the beginning when I started to believe or refer to God as the Universe. I think the primary reason why I believe it to be so is result of an experience I had when I was about 19 or 20. I won't get into the details of the experience since I believe it was very personal. I will however tell you that I basically "saw" connection between all things from microorganisms and bacteria to human beings.

This experience resulted in thoughts about this connection and the nature of it. The word "Universe" can be just a scientific term or it can be both a scientific term and a spiritual term, in my opinion. There is a physical tangible side of the UNiverse which is finite and then there is a part of the Universe that is infinite. The infinite part is the energy. I think we will agree that there are various types of energy in the Universe.

I associated the Universe with my definition of what God is for the previous explained reasons. The Universe is basically not thought of as having a gender or a human like body. It is basically not thought of as having other characteristics of humanity. When I think of the Universe, I think of it as being a sort of "boundary" even though I am aware that science is looking into the possibility of multiple Universes etc.

This is where my "Microbe- (probably even atom, etc)-in-the-Body to explain-Humanity-within-the Universe" argument comes into play (The Microcosm and the Macrocosm).

I think of all things we don't know about the Universe that may or may not be realities such as multiple dimensions.. the mystery of black holes... and other phenomenon like the core of the sun cooler than its surface, etc. There are still many wonders in the Unvierse and most of these wonders will never be known by humanity. There are things that we will never know about it and we can't change that. This can fill some people with denial or dread but it feels me with excitement. Just thank about all the possibilities!!!

I suppose when all is said and done, I just simply do not have another word to describe my idea of God besides the word "Universe." I really do not like the word "God." The Universe also has many mysteries and extreme room for interpretation like my idea of "God." It is too minimizing to just call it "Energy." It is, however, vast like the Universe and as complicated and mysterious.

I must add that another book that really had the brain waves flowing when it comes to the Universe, Space and Time, dimensions, God, etc. is the book Time and Space by Time-Life Books. It is a must read.

I think that you can have many interpretations about the nature of "God" and you can argue it and argue it. But I think what really matters is the result of your beliefs, how they translate into your life, how they apply to life, etc. The belief is just a pre-cursor to intentions and actions. If belief enriches life and causes one to feel "energized" and worthy then that is the purpose.

Blu

I think I have the discussion ending bug. I was the absolutely last one to post on the other topic entitled "Predestination." And it appears that I will be the last one posting on this topic too! LOL!

Waning Moon Conrad

Christian God -

An omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent being who is separate to his creation, has an ego, gets abominations in his eyes, is subject to pitiful human frailties such as jealousy ( he said so himself in the Bible which is his alleged word ),
and allowed a recalcitrant angel to spoil his creation so that he is either absolutely obligated to cause the eternal agony of a segment of humanity or will do so because he chooses to.

Another weird thing about him is this ..... people who were never exposed to Christianity and hence never had the chance to accept Jesus as their saviour, will be judged according to their basic human decency or lack thereof. Everyone else who has heard of Jesus and rejects him will burn no matter how well they behave in every other department.

Hence we have an infinite God of infinite love and mercy who has made it necessary for some people to accept his son as their saviour otherwise they'll suffer agony for eternity but others do not have to make this choice, they simply get to be nice or nasty and suffer the consequences of their actions.