galiel

This whole "stop attacking Helen" is itself a strawman and an illegitimate attempt to stifle debate.

Starboy asked a simple, reasonable question: Do you hold the bible to be the authority for your faith? He then asserted that if the answer is yes, then Helen cannot be a freethinker.

That is not an ad hominem attack, it is not an unfair question.

The term Freethinker means someone who uses reason to determine the existence or nonexistence of god. Originally, it referred to those who believed that the emergence of modern science would allow them to use empiricism and the scientific method to learn more about and become closer to god. As you know, virtually all the founders of modern science were theists.

However, as science continually found more and more mundane explanations for more and more phenomena that were previously attributed to god, there was less and less reason to "have" to have a god in order to make sense of the universe.

Today, Freethinker has come to mean someone whose use of reason, critical thinking and modern knowledge and scientific understanding of the world around leads him or her to conclude the nonexistence of god.

You can redefine words all you want, but that is mere sophistry and illuminates nothing. One cannot call oneself a Freethinker if a single controversial source, such as the bible, serves as the final, indisputable source of one's convictions. That is the point Starboy made, and that was the purpose of the question he asked.

Starboy

Thanks galiel. I am surprised that the moderator responded as s/he did. You would think this was a Christian board.

Starboy

agapeo

Originally posted by Starboy:
:lol Perhaps I'm just a glutton for punishment.
An atheist is what you are. Sterotyping you would be more along the lines of saying since you are an atheist you think in a certain way. Or that because you're an atheist your evil.
Good for you.
Noble of you.
Could this be a basis for all your interactions with Christians? Assuming to know how they will respond.
It's not my mission in life to do so.
I'll try.
Ok.
Sounds fair enuh.

It's easy sometimes to miscontrue a comment. I think we all are susceptible to that from time to time. The basis of my interaction on this thread (which btw has gotten somewhat off-topic and I apologize) is the following from you.
It was the second sentence that caught my attention. IMO it was a mild insult but an insult nonetheless. It was not an attack on any argument Helen made but rather IMO an attack on Helen herself.

But as I implied -- Maybe I was wrong and if so I apologize to you. Now how about Bubba's suggestion?

agapeo

Really!
That could be but isn't it also true that we all rely on the authority of others to base our opinions on. To at least a certain extent. So we each have our own "authority/ies" we look to for answers to the questions we may have.
Nothing wrong with the question per se. It was the unneccessary "goad" to try to get her to answer the question that I considered an ad hominem attack.
So then . . . if one uses their reasoning and determines that God exists that makes them a freethinker.
Yes, but "science" role/purpose isn't to determine the existence of God. Is it?
Science has done an excellent job of explaining some questions but it isn't exactly batting .500 on all of them. I could simply trust them to eventually do so but isn't that the equilvalent to faith?
That's how you think of it. I disagree. That's the essence of being able to freely think. IOW I don't have to follow the prevalent thinking or fit within the "groove". I realize that that doesn't guarantee that my thinking would be correct but can you be certain that yours is?
Hmm . . . you are aware that words are redefined quite often, aren't you?
Depends on what those convictions are.
Could be but I didn't see it that way. Am I not allowed to disagree?

HelenM

By the way I'm very busy for the next week...my extended family is here from overseas, staying in my house...

I'll review this thread for comments to me after their visit

(Just in case anyone wonders where I got to )

take care
Helen

Starboy

agapeo, you do stereotype me. Tell me honestly if you would have had the same reaction if instead of thinking I were an atheist you thought I were a Christian.

Starboy

Bree

I don't think that criticising a person unnecessarily counts as a litmus test for a freethinker.

Please check your email.

[ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: Bree ]</p>

seebs

I don't know what a litmus test for "freethinker" would look like. My guess would be that it would be that you ask the person a tough question, and see whether they say "I don't know" before they start thinking.

Starboy

Or if their first response is to start whining.

NOGO

Yes, we are born atheists. Too bad that we are not born skeptics as well.

Most parents go out of their way to kill skepticism in a child. To me skepticism is something to be cherished and encouraged.

Galiel,
Good post.