Freethought & Rationalism Archive

davidH · 11-22-2002, 03:18 PM

Ok, let me start from the beginning and present stuff to you.

Quote:

Several writers have examined the evidence, including this author (Bow88:188). It has been interesting to see how critics of the story have had to retreat step by step. Firstly it was claimed that Lady Hope did not even exist.
When she was identified, it was doubted if she ever had any connection with Darwin.
Past issues of the Watchman Examiner were scanned and her account was not found in those available. It was later discovered and reproduced in the CRSQ (29/2:70).
Eventually, it was not only admitted that she was in the area of Downe but that she did visit Darwin.
She is then accused of "embroidering" her account of what Darwin said.

In view of the early lack of evidence, some creationists have advised that the story should not be used, mainly in view of the strong denial of the whole Darwin family, and the absence of any reference in Darwin's writings to a return to Christian beliefs.
http://www.carm.org/evo_questions/deathbed.htm

So from the very beginning critics laughed at this story saying it couldn't be possible - gradually they were proved wrong and had to eat their words on what they had said at the start.

So lady Hope was not a myth - she was a historical person.

Quote:

1. She certainly must have visited the house and seen Darwin in his upstairs bedroom.

She describes Darwin's dressing gown exactly, his nervous twitching of fingers, his animated countenance when speaking, the view from his window and the existence of a "summer house"; all known to be perfectly accurate descriptions. How could she have known the precise colour of Darwin's dressing gown and several other personal details if she had never seen him in his home? In the Watchman account, written in 1915, she says he was "sitting up in bed". In the Bole letter, written in the 1920's, she describes him "lying on a sofa". It was a sofa and not a bed as testified by his son (M: 13 1). Here we see her later recollection correcting her first writing even in this small detail. In the Bole letter she also remembers that "It was a large room with a high ceiling" - a further testimony that she had entered his house.
It has been objected that Darwin would not have used such flowery descriptions, such as "grand(eur)", when referring to the Bible, but they were Lady Hope's phraseology. Yet this word is found in a flattering letter he wrote in 1859 about a book and in another letter in 1873 referring to "this grand and wonderous universe." This does at least show Darwin used this word to express his high esteem of any matter under discussion. Also, Parslow, his personal servant cum nurse, was converted by Fegan and may have used such phrases as "salvation", etc. in discussions with Darwin.

Lady Hope reported his conversion and claimed to have visited him and read the New Testament to him.

So now before we proceed any further - I'd like to write Lady Hope's report:

Quote:

It was one of those glorious autumn afternoons that we sometimes enjoy in England, that I was asked to go in and sit with the well known scientific author, Charles Darwin. He was almost bedridden for some months before he died. I use to feel when I saw him, that his fine presence would make a grand picture for our Royal Academy; but never did I think so more strongly than on this particular occasion.
He was sitting up in bed, wearing a soft embroidered dressing gown, of rather a rich purple shade. Propped up by pillows, he was gazing out on a far-stretching scene of wooods and cornfields, which glowed in the light of one of those marvellous sunsets which are the beauty of Kent and Surrey. His noble forehead and fine features seemed to be lit up with pleasure as I entered the room. He waved his hand towards the window as he pointed out the scene below, while in the other hand he held an open Bible which he was always studying.
"What are you reading now?" I asked as I seated myself at his bedside. "Hebrews!" he answered, "Still Hebrews, the Royal Book, I call it. Isn't it grand?" Then placing his finger on certain passages he commented on them. I made some allusion to the strong opinions expressed by many persons on the history of the Creation, its grandeur and then their treatment of the early chapters of the book of Genesis. He seemed greatly distressed, his fingers twitched nerviously, and a look of agony came over his face as he said,"I was a young man with unformed ideas. I threw out queries, suggestions,wondering all the time about everything; and to my astonishment the ideas took like wildfire. People made a religion out of them."
Then he paused and after a few more sentances on the holiness of God and the "grandeur of the Book", looking at the Bible which he was holding tenderly all the time, he suddenly said, "I have a summer-house in the garden, which holds about 30 people. It is over there." pointing through the open window. "I want you very much to speak there. I know you read the Bible in the villages. Tomorrow afternoon I should like the servants on the place, some tenants and a few of the neighbours to gather there. Will you speak to them?"
"What will I speak about?" I asked. "Christ Jesus" he replied in a clear emphatic voice, adding in a lower tone, "and his salvation. Is not that the best theme? And then I want you to sing some hymns with them. You lead on your small instrument do you not?"
The wonderful look of brightness and admiration on his face as he said this I will never forget, for he added, "If you take the meeting at 3 o'clock this window will be open and you will know that I am joining in with the singing."
How I wish I could have made a picture of the find old man and his beautiful surroundings on that memorable day.

These were her words as reported in the English Churchman. She was also interviewed by Booth Tucker who was a commissioner in the Salvation army. She confirmed all she had already said.

Lady Hope was the leader of the Temperance movement and Darwin was an ardent supported of it - why? Because his grandmother and greatgrandmother had died of drink. Darwin's son, Francis wrote:

Quote:

He had a horror of drinking and constantly warned his boys that anyone might be led into drinking to much.

There is little wonder why Darwin would invite Lady Hope to visit him, since she was the leading figure of the Temperance Movement.
Lady Hope was the daughter of General Sir Arthur Cotton and the wife of the first Admiral of the Fleet, Sir James Hope, and the British Library states that she a well known author of 37 works.

Denied by Henrietta Lichfield in "The Scotsman" that there was such a thing as a summer house in Darwin's garden.
But Sir Hedley Atkins said there was a summer house - he should know because he was the curator of the Down House Museum and Darwin lived at Down's house.

Quote:

There was a summer house at the end of the sandwalk on Darwin's estate.

He also adds:

Quote:

Perhaps Henrietta was carried away by her indignation.

Why is it that some people are so keen to deny that Darwin was converted?

So what about the meeting that were held at Darwin's home?

Evidence for these come from Darwin's own wife in the book "A Century of Family letters, vol. 2 pg 244
James Fegan said

Quote:

The services I held were attended sometimes by members of the Darwin family and regulary by menbers of their household. Indeed, when I had a mission in Downe, the Darwin family were considerate enough to alter their dining hour so that their household might attend - but this was characteristic of all who served them. At the services, Parslow, the old family butler was converted to God and brought into church membership, also Mrs Sales, the housekeeper was brought into the light, and others.

We can be sure that these services were held during the February (prob 14th-16th) of 1881, for Emma wrote the following letter to her daughter,
"Hurrah for Mr Fegan! Mrs Evans (the cook) attended a prayer meeting in which old M made as nice a prayer as you ever heard in your life.."
Old M is described as being a notable old drunkard of the village.

If you read Dr Croft's book (of Salford University) The life and death of Charles Darwin (Elmwood, 1989) much more evidence is given than I could possibly put up here.
Sufice to say that Fegan also brought 67 orphans to the Downs house for a camping holiday and Darwin gave each of the lads a 6penny piece.

Now the following report was published in the Bromley and Kentish Times, with what Mr A.H Nicholls who was closely aquainted with the servants of Darwin's household who had nursed him through his final illness, had to say.

Quote:

This lady who had been in attendance on Darwin prior to his death had informed him that he requested her to read the NT to him and asked her to arrange for the Sunday school children to sing "There is a green hill far away". This was done and Darwin, who was greatly moved, said ,"How I wish I had not expressed my theory of evolution as I have done.

It is probable that the lady that nursed Darwin was Mrs Evans. - She could have easily arranged for the Sunday school children to sing for him since she was a part of the congregation of the gospel hall.

There are 2 independant accounts that support the facts of Darwin's conversion.

Is there anything else to suggest that Darwin could have regretted his theory?

The answer is Yes, there is.
Towards the end of his life Darwin did realise that people were using his theory for all sorts of repugnant ideologies.
In a letter to Dr Scherzer (1879), he wrote:

Quote:

What a foolish idea seems to prevail in Germany on thte connection between Socialism and Evolution through natural selection.

He could see that Haeckel was urging the German people to accept their racial superiority and adopt "racial weeding" - all in the name of "Darwin's natural selection"
Again we see Hitler using the same ideology in the 2nd WW.
Darwin was also sensitive of how Karl Marx was applying Darwinism to justify revolutionary charge. So much so that he refused Marz permission to dedicate the English edition of "Das Kapital" to himself.

Charles Darwin also became an admirer of Christian missionary work during his voyage on The Beagle. In his Journal he praises the work of missionaries in Tahiti:

Quote:

The missionaries have done much in improving their (the Tahitians') moral character, and still more in teaching them the arts of civilisation.

Later on he adds

Quote:

I think it will be acknowledged that every well wisher of Tahiti owes no common debt of gratitude to the missionaries.

Again in N.Zealand appalled at the horrors of canabalism:

Quote:

I took leave of the missionaries with thankfulness for their kind welcome and with feelings of high respect for their gentleman-like, useful and upright characters. I think it would be difficult to find a body of men better adapted for the high office which they fulfil.

Darwin became a supporter of the South Americam Missionary Society and on the 30th of Jan 1870 Darwin writes:

Quote:

The success of the Tierra del Fuego Mission is most wonderful, and it charms me, as I had always prophesised failure. It is a grand success. I shall feel proud if your committee think fit to elect me as an honorary member of your Society.

4 and a half years later, on 6th June 1874, Darwin again writes to Admiral Sullivan to express amazement at the changes occuring amoungst the Fuegians. Seven years later, on 20th March 1881 Darwin writes:

Quote:

The account of the Fuegians interested not only me, but all my family. It is truly wonderful what you have heard from Mr Bridges about their honesety and their language. I certainly should have predicted that not all the missionaries in the world could have done what has been done.

Then again a few weeks before Darwin's death he sent a note to Sir James saying:

Quote:

Judging from the Missionary Journal the Mission on Teirra del Fuego seems going on quite wonderfully well.

This is a side of Darwin that you will never see in any text books about evolution and about the man behind it all.
Maybe it isn't so rediculous after all....as for me, Darwin's interest in missions, the meetings held at his house and the account of 2 people of his conversion does convince me that he did indeed become a Christian.

To finish off this long post (made up for lost time) I'd just like to say how appropiate the beginning of the book of Hebrews was to the Founder of the theory of Evolution.

Quote:

"God who at various times and in various ways spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by his Son...by whom he created the whole universe. The son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being and upholds all things by his powerful word."

MortalWombat · 11-22-2002, 03:52 PM

Darwin's daughter Henrietta had this to say:

Quote:

"I was present at his deathbed," she wrote in the _Christian_ for February 23, 1922. "Lady Hope was not present during his last illness, or any illness. I believe he never even saw her, but in any case she had no influence over him in any department of thought or belief. He never recanted any of his scientific views, either then or earlier. We think the story of his conversion was fabricated in the U.S.A. . . . The whole story has no foundation whatever."

Taken from:

Mrs R B Litchfield, "Charles Darwin's Death-Bed: Story of Conversion Denied," _The Christian_, February 23, 1922, p. 12.

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: MortalWombat ]

Megusic · 11-22-2002, 04:00 PM

I'm probably not the best person to respond to this and I'm sure that some of my more intellecutal infidels will better refute this story, but I just had a couple of comments to make.

First, Charles Darwin's own daughter claimed that Lady Hope never visited the man while on his deathbed. Possibly at a late stage in his life, but not at the very end, and his own children stated numerous times that he definately did not turn Christian before he died. Lady Hope was an evangelist and took it on herself to try to spread the gospel by creating a falsehood about a renowned scientist who's ideas betrayed the christian ideas she wanted to spread.

Second, Darwin didn't have a problem w/ Christianity, so him supporting missionaries or even Hope's temperance movement is irrelevent. Darwin believed that Christianity was just fine for the common man, but that educated ppl such as himself were beyond it. Aknowledging and praising the good things missionary groups did by no means makes someone Christian.

Third, yeah Darwin was concerned w/ what was happening w/ his theories...Social Darwinism did not appeal to him and he was concerned that people were using his findings out of context and for their own agendas. Charles Darwin becoming upset because people were misusing and misinterpreting his scientific findings does not mean that he renounced them.

Mageth · 11-22-2002, 04:23 PM

It's been said many times before, but I'll say it again: whether or not Darwin had his purported "deathbed conversion" or recantation of his scientific theories (which his own daughter denied) has absolutely NO BEARING on the truth or falsehood of his scientific theories.

The Resistance · 11-22-2002, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Megusic:

Darwin believed that Christianity was just fine for the common man, but that educated ppl such as himself were beyond it.

I know this doesn't add to the discussion, but am I the only one who finds that funny?

Biff the unclean · 11-22-2002, 04:55 PM

The old fellows own words. They look right at home on this board.
-------------------------------------------------------

"By further reflecting that the clearest evidence would be requisite to make any sane man believe in the miracles by which Christianity is supported,�and that the more we know of the fixed laws of nature the more incredible do miracles become,�that the men at that time were ignorant and credulous to a degree almost incomprehensible by us,�that the Gospels cannot be proven to have been written simultaneously with the events,�that they differ in many important details, far too important, as it seemed to me to be admitted as the usual inaccuracies of eye witnesses;�by such reflections as these, which I give not as having the least novelty or value, but as they influenced me, I gradually came to disbelieve in Christianity as a divine revelation. The fact that many fake religions have spread over large portions of the earth like wildfire had some weight with me. But I was very unwilling to give up my belief; I feel sure of this, for I can remember often and often inventing day-dreams of old letters between distinguished Romans, and manuscripts being discovered at Pompeii or elsewhere, which confirmed in the most striking manner all that was written in the Gospels. But I found it more and more difficult, with free scope given to my imagination, to invent evidence which would suffice to convince me. Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct."

-----Charles Darwin in his Autobiography

Biff the unclean · 11-22-2002, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
It's been said many times before, but I'll say it again: whether or not Darwin had his purported "deathbed conversion" or recantation of his scientific theories (which his own daughter denied) has absolutely NO BEARING on the truth or falsehood of his scientific theories.

Don't forget his son

-----

"Lady Hope's account of my father's views on religion is quite untrue. I have publicly accused her of falsehood, but have not seen any reply. My father's agnostic point of view is given in my Life and Letters of Charles Darwin, Vol. I., pp. 304-317. You are at liberty to publish the above statement. Indeed, I shall be glad if you will do so. Yours faithfully, Francis Darwin. Brookthorpe, Gloucester. May 28, 1918."
---------
And if that isn't enough; even Answers in Genesis says it's a fraud.
<a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1315.asp" target="_blank">http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1315.asp</a>

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Biff the unclean ]

Albion · 11-22-2002, 08:26 PM

And yet we're still hearing this rubbish from fundamentalists because Lady Hope said Darwin recanted the Satanic lie of evolution and Lady Hope was a True Christian and True Christians don't lie.

What possible relevance to anything would the statements of Darwin's own children have, after all, when set against the Truth? They were probably members of the Great Atheist Conspiracy anyway.

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Albion ]

Megusic · 11-22-2002, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Resistance:


I know this doesn't add to the discussion, but am I the only one who finds that funny?

am i being made fun of?

Buffman · 11-22-2002, 11:06 PM

"The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex", by Charles Darwin, M.A., Fellow of the Royal Society, etc., Hurst & Company Publishers, New York, 2nd Edition, 1874, Chap. III, "Belief in God--Religion", pgs.109-112.

Darwin makes it quite clear what he thinks about the human faith beliefs in the supernatural.... and how they "evolved."

I suspect that the young man who went to all that effort to bring credibility to the Lady Hope story has little knowledge or understanding of scientific theory/methodology. Was Darwin correct about everything? Hell no! However, he set in motion the greatest threat to the inerrant bible believer that will ever exist and they know it. Thus it is imperative that they do whatever they can to discredit evolutionary theory. What better place than to start with its author?

Personally I think that is very bebeficial to the Theory of Evolution that creationists huff and puff to their heart's delight. It only winds up exposing the Judeo-Christian Bible for what it really is. An ancient tome of myth and superstition...with just enough historically accurate items to be able to sell it to the unwary or unenlightened mind.

11-22-2002, 08:26 PM	#48
Albion Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: US east coast. And www.theroyalforums.com Posts: 2,829	And yet we're still hearing this rubbish from fundamentalists because Lady Hope said Darwin recanted the Satanic lie of evolution and Lady Hope was a True Christian and True Christians don't lie. What possible relevance to anything would the statements of Darwin's own children have, after all, when set against the Truth? They were probably members of the Great Atheist Conspiracy anyway. [ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Albion ]</p>

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11-22-2002, 04:00 PM	#43
Megusic Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: OH Posts: 1,292	I'm probably not the best person to respond to this and I'm sure that some of my more intellecutal infidels will better refute this story, but I just had a couple of comments to make. First, Charles Darwin's own daughter claimed that Lady Hope never visited the man while on his deathbed. Possibly at a late stage in his life, but not at the very end, and his own children stated numerous times that he definately did not turn Christian before he died. Lady Hope was an evangelist and took it on herself to try to spread the gospel by creating a falsehood about a renowned scientist who's ideas betrayed the christian ideas she wanted to spread. Second, Darwin didn't have a problem w/ Christianity, so him supporting missionaries or even Hope's temperance movement is irrelevent. Darwin believed that Christianity was just fine for the common man, but that educated ppl such as himself were beyond it. Aknowledging and praising the good things missionary groups did by no means makes someone Christian. Third, yeah Darwin was concerned w/ what was happening w/ his theories...Social Darwinism did not appeal to him and he was concerned that people were using his findings out of context and for their own agendas. Charles Darwin becoming upset because people were misusing and misinterpreting his scientific findings does not mean that he renounced them.

11-22-2002, 04:23 PM	#44
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	It's been said many times before, but I'll say it again: whether or not Darwin had his purported "deathbed conversion" or recantation of his scientific theories (which his own daughter denied) has absolutely NO BEARING on the truth or falsehood of his scientific theories.

11-22-2002, 04:55 PM	#46
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	The old fellows own words. They look right at home on this board. ------------------------------------------------------- "By further reflecting that the clearest evidence would be requisite to make any sane man believe in the miracles by which Christianity is supported,�and that the more we know of the fixed laws of nature the more incredible do miracles become,�that the men at that time were ignorant and credulous to a degree almost incomprehensible by us,�that the Gospels cannot be proven to have been written simultaneously with the events,�that they differ in many important details, far too important, as it seemed to me to be admitted as the usual inaccuracies of eye witnesses;�by such reflections as these, which I give not as having the least novelty or value, but as they influenced me, I gradually came to disbelieve in Christianity as a divine revelation. The fact that many fake religions have spread over large portions of the earth like wildfire had some weight with me. But I was very unwilling to give up my belief; I feel sure of this, for I can remember often and often inventing day-dreams of old letters between distinguished Romans, and manuscripts being discovered at Pompeii or elsewhere, which confirmed in the most striking manner all that was written in the Gospels. But I found it more and more difficult, with free scope given to my imagination, to invent evidence which would suffice to convince me. Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct." -----Charles Darwin in his Autobiography

11-22-2002, 11:06 PM	#50
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	"The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex", by Charles Darwin, M.A., Fellow of the Royal Society, etc., Hurst & Company Publishers, New York, 2nd Edition, 1874, Chap. III, "Belief in God--Religion", pgs.109-112. Darwin makes it quite clear what he thinks about the human faith beliefs in the supernatural.... and how they "evolved." I suspect that the young man who went to all that effort to bring credibility to the Lady Hope story has little knowledge or understanding of scientific theory/methodology. Was Darwin correct about everything? Hell no! However, he set in motion the greatest threat to the inerrant bible believer that will ever exist and they know it. Thus it is imperative that they do whatever they can to discredit evolutionary theory. What better place than to start with its author? Personally I think that is very bebeficial to the Theory of Evolution that creationists huff and puff to their heart's delight. It only winds up exposing the Judeo-Christian Bible for what it really is. An ancient tome of myth and superstition...with just enough historically accurate items to be able to sell it to the unwary or unenlightened mind.

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