MyKell

Behold all theists (at least those of Abrahamic faiths),
Genetic research is proving that people with "bad traits" have "bad genes", like depression, agression, etc... etc... have firmly established genetic backgrounds. God is supposed to have created all humans equally, otherwise, there is no point in judging everyone at the end. Where is the justice in creating someone who has those bad genes and asking him to act rightfully. By the way, I'm not a believer of right and wrong, and I don't wish to engage in a moral discussion. Also, I'm not trying to discuss free will. I'm just using simple language to make a point clear. Does any of you propose a "genetically customized" judgement by the all mighty Lord?
Second of all, imagine someone with a very grumpy personality... This person has lived his rightfully in every possible way other than dealing with people. He simply can't deal with people. Now he's dead and on his way to heaven. What would God do, cure his grumpy personality after his death? Isn't that like changing who he is? If God would change people after they die, which would at times be essential for them to get along with everyone in heaven, then why doesn't he simply change all humans and replace them with angels after they die. Like I wouldn't be me after I get to heaven because God will change so many things to make heaven "the perfect place", otherwise it's another earth.
Please don't post things like "You don't know what heaven is", "You can't understand God's mind". My questions are logical, I need logical answers

HelenM

The Christian position is that God knows everything about everyone, so His judgment of each person will take everything into account in a way that is fair, and therefore, yes, that would include genetic predispositions.

For what it's worth, being genetically predisposed towards something wouldn't necessarily mean that person therefore cannot be held at all responsible for acting out their predisposition. It may still be appropriate to consider them partially responsible for what they do in light of their predisposition. After all, aren't we all 'predisposed' to take care of ourselves but that doesn't mean we can't be held responsible for killing someone just because they are annoying us, thereby infringing on our personal comfort...

Helen

MyKell

Again, the purpose of this discussion is not to Free will vs determinism. The way the community deals with criminals cannot be extrapolated to how "God" would deal with them. A community is concered ultimately with a natural law that would guarantee its survival. So a criminal would not be excused even if he had half of his genes responsible for killing (that's a joke of course, not to be taken literally). However, God's claim is completely different. At least, it appears that God created individuals and cares about their welfare. God judges individuals not communities.

Amos

God created man and not humans. Therefore, our human condition is not part of Gods creation but the result of our own manipulation of that which God created.

Man as God knows no good or evil so good and evil will not be part of the judgement. What counts is the deviation from the norm wherein all things are relative. The norm here is the happy-go-lucky blissfull state of mind that we once knew and left behind. Based on this can believers get lost in every possible world because the word 'lost' now makes reference to the state of mind we once knew. This, then, is the reason why virtue and piety should be encouraged in children (according to the Catholic tradition) because that will become our "treshold of hope" or your "genetically customized" boundry of our feelings towards right and wrong that itself will convict us of right and wrong.

I should add here that there is no confusion at all, except in the minds of the confused.

MyKell

How more confused can a theist get?

Amos

The logical answer would be to demonstate that our humanity has its own existence of being that is different from that of man.

In my view man is the created being and our humanity is the condition that makes us human . . . which is other than man (see Aristotle's "Cathegories" on this). The prefix -hu is from -humi and signifies the 'earthly' condition that was added to man. If we now postulate that heaven is opposite to earth the addition of the prefix -hu renders human opposite to man who himself is therefore a heavenly being and the human condition makes him an low life earthly thinker at best. Is that logical or are you now confused?

MyKell

So earthly conditions turns the man into hu-man.
But I thought that God created man as a human, since there was an earthly (social) interaction between man and God from the very beginning, and later on between adam and eve. The initial conditions in heaven are described in a very earthly way in Genesis.
According to your earlier post, we are seeking that "man" state. So when those of us, who are righteous enough, die and go to heaven, they stop being humans and become men. What happens to women... hahaha!
This is so messed up, you gotta do better than that... Unless you have a better definition of what you mean by "earthly", I won't be continuing such a discussion. And you still haven't answered any of my two questions, which is why I put the post in the first place.

Amos

Yes the restoration of our man-as-God image is what it is all about and righteousness has nothing to do with it.

The social interaction was between Lord God and man (not God and man) and out of this woman was taken (without having been created first) to become the womb, or blueprint for man.

Man is generic to include males and females who in their own right are both male and female to the same extent as they are male and not female or vice versa.

So the genetic modification of our genes runs through the blueprint of man, woman here, who needed the TOK to modify the TOL, which is woman as the blueprint or womb of man. So we can only blame ourselves when we as rational beings along the TOK mess with 'mother nature' in the TOL (Gen.3:6 tells us this).

The personality change happens after the first death, which is the death of the Adam identity as a name given to our fallen nature. Hence, the higher nature is restored.