WJ

Hi A3!

"The most important idea for us to grasp clearly is the idea of God, because this governs and controls all our wishing and thinking, whether we realize it or not. Even the atheist’s idea of God as a nonentity enters into all his thoughts and influences his feelings and his life much more than he realizes."

I don't agree that that is the 'most important' idea to grasp it 'clearly' as it is not logically possible to do so. However, I do agree to the subconcious elements from both the theist and atheist when trying to objectify their respective positions. And I also realize that if it somehow wasn't objectified, through language, from the getgo, then perhaps there would be no meaningful way to engage in worship. So we first have an intrinsic (subjective)need to find meaning in life, then we seek to make sense out of it. faith seeking understanding as it were.

Actually, in terms of objectivism viz. interpretation of the Scripture as was cited, I didn't understand it completely. Does Scripture say explicitly that Jesus was three persons? Or do we infer that from interpretation? (Nothing wrong with inference, btw.)

Thanks,

Walrus

A3

Hi WJ,

First about the "clearly". You are right on that we will never understand His nature completely. As clearly as possible would have been better.
Swedenborg stresses that in the next life our idea of someone determines our "distance" from them. This principle goes for our idea of God as wel, to the point of being in a state of hell if we hate Him.

This is based on not understanding our spiritual dimension and thus a reading between the lines. No, it does not say anywhere that Jesus was one of three persons. And that's why the 'mystery.'
And that is also why having been created in His image and likeness is pushed under the rug, it doesn't fit.
A3

A3

You may be right, but the question was meant as a follow up on the ‘rearview mirror’ example earlier. My understanding is that if anything spiritually happens to an individual in this day and age, which can be a near death experience or a vision of some sort, it only happens if it does not force a believe. Then the only use it has is confirmation. In other words, if I know for myself there is life after death, watching a John Edward show (a medium) is a confirmation. Someone else has the freedom to say: those are just lucky guesses. Freedom all around.
And thank you for sharing what your believes are.
See you
A3

Danpech

Are you a product, in that sense, of your father? Or, as a contrasting question, are you a product of an uncaring physical universe which has somehow evolved you to care so much about things such as that there is no God? You pose us as mere products of God (whom you deny exists), yet you seem determined to believe that things only come from things which have what the products have. So, how do you have feelings, values, a sense of truth and falsehood, etc, if you came from a mindless and uncaring universe?

spin

spin:
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If God had simply created us without the test drive on earth, what difference do you imagine there would be?
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A3
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Test drive, that’s a good one. In many places it is said that people who don’t believe in God will die or be in eternal death. This means spiritual death. God is Life so to decide against God is to choose death.
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This is in no sense dealing with the question that was asked of you A3.

A3:
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We believe we are now in a spiritual womb.
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You might believe such a strange idea, but it is not answering the question.

A3:
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Just as our physical body was in our mother’s womb to be formed for this physical world, so we are now to be shaped spiritually for the next or spiritual life.
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This analogy might be a self-justification for you, A3, but it still doesn't answe the question you apparently set out to deal with.

A3:
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And this is what all the previous points are about: our spiritual side needs to develop in a physical environment which serves as its foundation. If someone chooses to be evil, it means he wants to go to hell and heaven would be hell to him. Another word for hell is death.
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This is all very interesting A3, but if God had simply created us without the test drive on earth (a test drive which you attempt to analyse in your response, but not the question asked of you), what difference do you imagine there would be?

As you believe your god is the creator of humans and assuming he could do a semi-respectable job of the task (which should be easy -- after all he is omnipotent, right?) some of the ones he creates will according to you choose to suck up and the rest won't. The large majority that won't, of course, seems to indicate the ability of the creator. Either he can create humans adequately or he can't. If they can't choose to do what he says, it's obviously his fault, because he is supposed to be responsible, having created them. So, why not aleviate all the torture imposed by your god on this earth as a direct result of his creation of life here (and he is omniscient, right?), by doing away with the text drive?

--------------------------------

(Incidentally, death is not the opposite of life. Death is merely the end of life.)

Kent Stevens

I am borrowing analogies from Christainity. God is supposedly a creator in Christianity. He is supposed to create us from dust and to dust we will return. In this sense we are produced by God and can be thought to have been a product of God.

The father analogy comes from how Jesus refered to God as father. The Lords prayer begins with our father who art in heaven. Some Christians think that everyone is God's children whereas some Christians do not think everyone is God's children.

There are a great number of things that we have that the universe does not have. We have hands, stomachs, lungs, hearts, brains, language, and emotions that the Universe in total does not have. But if someone makes something it will not necessarily have feelings, a sense of truth and falsehood, and other human qualities. God was supposed to have made things like the moon and the sun which do not have human characteristics.

It would be a mistake to think that the things created necessarily have the characteristics of what created them. If this was not the case, then what you physically write would have feelings, a sense of truth and falsehood, and other human characteristics.

Anyway, where did God supposedly get his characteristics from? He would not have got his characteristics from some other God who had a sense of truth and falsehood, etc.

We were created over an immense of period of time through evolution. This is possible because billions of years give the opportunity for life to gradually improve in complexity to the stage that we know now.

A3

Hi Spin,
I imagine, since you only seem to believe what is on this earth and can be touched, the difference for you would be that you would not exist. Just like mom’s womb would not exist if we were created humans right out of the bleu, so this world would not exist if God created us as spiritual beings (angels or devils) right away. (This would also make Him the creator of evil). We believe that the meaning of this material life is to make ourselves angels or devils for the next life. And we need this physical life (bodily senses) with its choices to shape (or change) ourselves because spirtual substance cannot change itself. At death our ‘design’ is frozen, “the tree lies where falls.”

You are the living prove of the fact that humans CAN choose to do or not do what He says!!!!! You will be (or are) in your ‘heaven.’ I write ‘heaven’ because it is not my idea of heaven. But you are 100% free, are 100% responsible, in creating your own spiritual environment, wether you like it or not.
You seem to think that something (or nothing?) started this dumb train-set in which trains derail and collide seemingly without reason. Since you don’t see any reason for this train-set to begin with, if someone says to you that God created it, you say it is a bad design because all the carnage and bloodshed. God doesn’t make anybody fly into buildings, people do. If it is a bad design, here is a challange.
HOW WOULD YOU HAVE DESIGNED THE WORLD?
The same rule applies here as they do to God:
People have to remain human, i.e. be free to wish and think what they love.
This means you cannot jump in someone’s face and proof you’re God (has been done and doesn’t work).
BTW If you make it impossible for people to want to fly into buildings, you also take away their freedom to voice an opinion about e.g. a certain dress, written article, neighbor or behaviour.

(You don’t have to do it in six days starting this Sarurday I’ll be on holidays for two weeks.)
regards
A3

WJ

Of course, we all know that in the 21st century we are too sophisticated, did I spell that right to conclude that evolution is not without its gaps and holes too! There is no evidence from ape's to current man with regard to the 'leap' from primitive consciousness to modern day.

A few of the many holes are as follows:

1. Has ethics evolved? No.
2. Who/how is it explained: creation of birds, animals, insects, physical matter, the mind?
3. Why did the Big Bang occur?
4. What is the nature of Ex-nihilo?
5. How did the universe evolve? And if it did, would other life forms subsequently appear or currently exist somewhere being much smarter than we? Why us?
6. And why do we even 'think' that we should be 'smarter' to begin with? I'm just an evolved animal, who cares? Evolved in order to do what? What's the purpose of evolution viz. human consciousness itself?

Gosh, don't go there...

Walrus

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]</p>

spin

spin:
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If God had simply created us without the test drive on earth, what difference do you imagine there would be?
------------------------------

A3:
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I imagine, since you only seem to believe what is on this earth and can be touched, the difference for you would be that you would not exist.
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I wouldn't use the word "believe" above.

A3:
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Just like mom’s womb would not exist if we were created humans right out of the bleu, so this world would not exist if God created us as spiritual beings (angels or devils) right away.
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This may be so, assuming your god.

A3:
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(This would also make Him the creator of evil).
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This doesn't follow from anything.

A3:
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We believe that the meaning of this material life is to make ourselves angels or devils for the next life.
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As you believe your god created you, then he is responsible for the outcome of the actions of the individuals he created. Stop passing the buck.

A3:
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And we need this physical life (bodily senses) with its choices to shape (or change) ourselves because spirtual substance cannot change itself. At death our ‘design’ is frozen, “the tree lies where falls.”
------------------------------

There is no need: your god by your definition is omnipotent, so he doesn't need such things. We would only be the results of what he made.

spin:
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If they can't choose to do what he says, it's obviously his fault, because he is supposed to be responsible, having created them.
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A3:
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You are the living prove of the fact that humans CAN choose to do or not do what He says!!!!!
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This is only your interpretation and I think you are simply misguided. Not much of anything I do is my choice. And there is no way that you can attribute my actions to doing or not doing anything your claimed god may have said.

A3:
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You will be (or are) in your ‘heaven.’ I write ‘heaven’ because it is not my idea of heaven. But you are 100% free, are 100% responsible, in creating your own spiritual environment, wether you like it or not.
You seem to think that something (or nothing?) started this dumb train-set in which trains derail and collide seemingly without reason.
------------------------------

What makes you think it had a start? Think of infinity: try to go there; when you reach what you were thinking of, there is still infinity in front of you.

A3:
------------------------------
Since you don’t see any reason for this train-set to begin with, if someone says to you that God created it, you say it is a bad design because all the carnage and bloodshed. God doesn’t make anybody fly into buildings, people do. If it is a bad design, here is a challange.

HOW WOULD YOU HAVE DESIGNED THE WORLD?
----------------

I wouldn't have designed it. I see no reason for it to exist. I see no sign of it having been designed. I see no need for it.

An omnipotent god wouldn't need such a thing especially given its god-awful state. Your god doesn't of course need human beings, but you seem to think he created them for some reason, which as a side effect requires the pain, death and perhaps eternal damnation of the majority of the creation because you hypothesize that your god fucked up and couldn't make a simpler more efficient world, which needed the test drive.

As your god by definition doesn't need people, he doesn't need to torture them. But the results of his creation cause such torture, one can only conclude that your god failed to do a reasonable job or he likes torturing people.

WJ

Kant!

Sorry I forgot to edit my post with perhaps the most important aspect of your evolution suggestion.

The ability to calculate gravitational forces confer no biological advantages over humans/animals, in order to dodge falling objects.

What follows?

Walrus