Layman

What I find strange about this argument is that you accept that Josephus does contain a reference to Jesus that is original and which established the existence of Jesus--Antiquities 20. This reference was available to all of the Church fathers who were familiar with Josephus (which itself is an open question). Yet you then proceed to argue that because these early Church Fathers had some motive to cite Josephus's Antiquities 18 to prove the mere existence of Jesus and they did not do so, that it is less likely that the TF was original to Josephus. However. IF there was such a need, then all of these early Church Fathers still could have relied on Josephus's in Antiquities 20 to establish the mere existence of Jesus. However, there is no indication that any of these other writers availed themselves of Josephus's reference to Jesus in Antiquities 20.

Additionally, it is inaccurate to say that Origen quoted Josephus merely to prove that John the Baptist existed. Celsus had apparently already acknowledged the existence of John and that he was in some sense a Baptist. So there was no need to "prove" up the existence of John the Baptist and that is not Origen's point (and, even if it where Origen's purpose to prove something that his opponent had admitted, it would just make this incident an aberration, it would not provide a motive for all of the early Church fathers to "prove" what their opponents admitted). What Origen seems to be doing is using Josephus to demonstrate that the destruction of Jerusalem was a result of God's judgment against the Jews for rejecting Jesus. I may not accept Origen's logic, but it goes something like this. "Now you admit that John the Baptist existed. Well this guy Josephus, who like you doesn't even admit that Jesus was Christ, wrote about this John the Baptist you know about. You should also take seriously then, his claim that Jerusalem was destroyed because of the murder of James, the brother of Jesus. And since James is the brother of Jesus, then 'how should it not be more in accordance with reason to say that it happened on account (of the death) of Jesus Christ, of whose divinity so many Churches are witnesses, composed of those who have been convened from a flood of sins, and who have joined themselves to the Creator, and who refer all their actions to His good pleasure.'" Origen, Contra Celsus, 1.48.

Finally, in keeping with Lowder's argument that there simply was no reason -- or, at least, not a strong enough one to render the "argument from silence" persuasive -- for these early Christian writers to refer to the TF, I want to point out that Eusebius was a new kind of Christian writer. "Eusebius was doing something new: no one before him had attempted a history of the Church, and earlier historians had written a very different type of history from that Eusebius attempted, which is, as we have seen, not only annalistic but really the extended notes of a chronologer." Eusebius: The History of the Church from Christ to Constantine, Trsn. G.A. Williamson, at xx.

Additionally, it appears that Eusebius was very enamored with Josephus. In fact, "Josephus is Eusebius' main source for the history of the first century A.D. Eusebius is also fond of showing how Josephus supports the history presupposed by the writings of the New Testament." Ed. Andrew Louth, Eusebius, The History of the Church, at 382. No other Christian writer had ever made such an extensive use of Josephus' writings. <a href="http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/josephus/josephus.htm" target="_blank">http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/josephus/josephus.htm</a>

Considering these points, I think the "silence" loses much of its probative value as evidence that the TF is a complete forgery.

Honestly, I have not found any information on this argument so I cannot comment at this time.

I think I will have to rest on Van Voorst's argument on this one. But I'll keep looking to see if anyone else has commented on this issue. Are you aware of any other such commentators?

It appears more reasonable to believe that Josephus applies this term to Christians (a unique and separate group consisting of Greek and Jews) when he is known to have used the term many other times to distinguish other "peoples" (including Jews AND Gentiles) than it is to suspect that it is a Christian would have used this term, when Christians rarely if ever described themselves as a "tribe." As Van Voorst notes, "calling Christians a 'tribe' would also be unusual for a Christian scribe; a follower of a missionizing faith would be uncomfortable with the more narrow, particularistic implications of this word." JOTNT, at 90.

The evidence provided demonstrates that Josephus often uses the term "principal men" to describe Jewish leaders. He commonly alternates the phrase: three times using the term "of the city"; twice using the term "of Jerusalem"; and once using the phrase, "belonging to the city." It does not seem strange at all that when writing a personal biography, that Josephus refers to the "principle men" in the third person. But when writing a history of the Jewish people, Josephus quite logically uses the Josephus phrase "principal men" adds the term "among us." In the autobiography, he is speaking about himself. In the latter, he is giving a history of his people, the Jews.

Furthermore, this phrase appears to be nonexistent in early Christian literature. A Christian scribe trying to place blame on "the Jews" and inspired by Christian scripture and teaching would likely have chosen a more familiar phrase, such as "the Jews" or the Sanhedrin or the High Priest and the Sadduccees.

Accordingly, I believe the reference to "the principle men among us" indicates Josephan style and content, not Christian interpolation.

[ July 30, 2002: Message edited by: Layman ]</p>

Peter Kirby

I wrote:

Layman writes: Honestly, I have not found any information on this argument so I cannot comment at this time.

I will make some comments.

I tracked down the nine (other) uses of the word 'poihths', in its various inflections, found in the works of Josephus. Here they are.

"But there are no inhabitants of Palestine that are circumcised excepting the Jews; and therefore it must be his knowledge of them that enabled him to speak so much concerning them. Cherilus also, a still ancienter writer, and a poet (poiêtês), makes mention of our nation, and informs us that it came to the assistance of king Xerxes, in his expedition against Greece." - Against Apion 1.22 (1.172)

"Now this grammarian, as he was, could not certainly tell which was the poet Homer's (Homêrou tou poiêtou) country, no more than he could which was the country of Pythagoras, who lived comparatively but a little while ago; yet does he thus easily determine the age of Moses, who preceded them such a vast number of years, as depending on his ancient men's relation, which shows how notorious a liar he was." - Against Apion 2.2 (2.14)

"Moreover, he informed him of Theodectes, the tragic poet (Theodektou tou tôn tragôidiôn poiêtou), concerning whom it was reported, that when in a certain dramatic representation he was desirous to make mention of things that were contained in the sacred books, he was afflicted with a darkness in his eyes; and that upon his being conscious of the occasion of his distemper, and appeasing God [by prayer], he was freed from that affliction." - Antiquities 12.2.14 (12.110)

"And now I exhort all those that peruse these books, to apply their minds to God; and to examine the mind of our legislator, whether he hath not understood his nature in a manner worthy of him; and hath not ever ascribed to him such operations as become his power, and hath not preserved his writings from those indecent fables which others have framed, although, by the great distance of time when he lived, he might have securely forged such lies; for he lived two thousand years ago; at which vast distance of ages the poets themselves (autôn hoi poiêtai) have not been so hardy as to fix even the generations of their gods, much less the actions of their men, or their own laws." - Antiquities 0.1.3 (0.16)

"And indeed this legislation is full of hidden wisdom, and entirely blameless, as being the legislation of God; for which cause it is, as Hecateus of Abdera says, that the poets and historians (tous poiêtas autês kai tous sungrapheis tôn historiôn) make no mention of it, nor of those men who lead their lives according to it, since it is a holy law, and ought not to be published by profane mouths." - Antiquities 12.2.4 (12.38)

"And he began to discourse with Demetrius, 'How it came to pass, that when this legislation was so wonderful, no one, either of the poets or of the historians (tôn historikôn autês oute tôn poiêtôn), had made mention of it.'" - Antiquities 12.2.14 (12.110)

"But since our antagonists think to run us down upon the comparison of their religion and ours, it is not possible to keep silence here, especially while what I shall say to confute these men will not be now first said, but hath been already said by many, and these of the highest reputation also; for who is there among those that have been admired among the Greeks for wisdom, who hath not greatly blamed both the most famous poets (poiêtôn tois epephanestatois), and most celebrated legislators, for spreading such notions originally among the body of the people concerning the gods?" - Against Apion 2.34 (2.239)

"And truly I suppose it to be derived from the imperfect knowledge the heathen legislators had at first of the true nature of God; nor did they explain to the people even so far as they did comprehend of it: nor did they compose the other parts of their political settlements according to it, but omitted it as a thing of very little consequence, and gave leave both to the poets (poiêtais) to introduce what gods they pleased, and those subject to all sorts of passions, and to the orators to procure political decrees from the people for the admission of such foreign gods as they thought proper." - Against Apion 2.36 (2.251)

"However, nothing that I have said was unknown to those that were real philosophers among the Greeks, nor were they unacquainted with those frigid pretensions of allegories [which had been alleged for such things]; on which account they justly despised them, but have still agreed with us as to the true and becoming notions of God; whence it was that Plato would not have political settlements admit to of any one of the other poets (allôn oudena poiêtôn), and dismisses even Homer himself, with a garland on his head, and with ointment poured upon him, and this because he should not destroy the right notions of God with his fables." - Against Apion 2.37 (2.256)

The word is used in both 'poet' and 'doer' senses in the New Testament.

"for in him we live and move and exist; as also some of the poets (poihtwn) amongst you have said, For we are also his offspring." - Acts 17:28

"for not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers (poihtai) of the law shall be justified." - Romans 2:13

"But be ye doers (poihtai) of [the] word and not hearers only, beguiling yourselves." - James 1:22

"For if any man be a hearer of [the] word and not a doer (poihths), he is like to a man considering his natural face in a mirror." - James 1:23

Since I do not have access to searchable Greek church fathers, or to a concordance of the Greek church fathers, or for that matter any of the books in Greek excepting the apostolic fathers and some of Clement of Alexandria, I do not know whether a Christian before Eusebius (or Eusebius himself) used 'poihths' to refer to a miracle worker. But it does appear to be the case that, if Josephus used the word here, it would be going against the grain of all nine (other) uses of the word in Josephus. Only 'special pleading' could maintain that.

best,
Peter Kirby

Layman

Meier does discuss Josephus' use of poietes and notes that it is not surpising that Josephus would use the word in this way and he also notes that Josephus uses related (or derivative) terms to discuss "doing things."

[i]"t is used elsewhere in Josephus only in the sense of "poet"; but Josephus ... has a fondness for resolving a simple verb into two words: a noun expressing the agent and the auxiliary verb (e.g., krites einai for the simple krinein). Moreover, Josephus uses such cognates as poieteos, 'that which is to be done," poiesis, "doing, causing" (as well as "poetry, poem"), and poietikos, 'that which causes something" (as well as "poetic")."

John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew, Vol. 1., at 81.

Layman

An additional note on the phrase "principal men."

I have found at least one additional Josephas passage supporting the idea that it was not unusual for Josephus to use this term in the first person plural.

Book 18, Chapt. 1, 1:

All sorts of misfortunes also sprang from these men, and the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree; one violent war came upon us after another, and we lost our friends which used to alleviate our pains; there were also very great robberies and murder of our principal men.

Elsewhere Josephus often refers to "the principal men of that nation" or "the principal men of the ---ians."

One example:

Book 18, Chapt. 6.7.

Now Agrippa stood in his bonds before the royal palace, and leaned on a certain tree for grief, with many others,. who were in bonds also; and as a certain bird sat upon the tree on which Agrippa leaned, (the Romans call this bird bubo,) [an
owl,] one of those that were bound, a German by nation, saw him, and asked a soldier who that man in purple was; and when he was informed that his name was Agrippa, and that he was by nation a Jew, and one of the principal men of that nation....

We also have references to the "the princnipal men of the Jewish nation" and "principal men of the Jews."

Book 7, Chapts. 6.1 and 6.3.

All of these references are in Anituquities. I will note that there were some references to "principal men of Jerusalem" in Anituquities (not just in Jewish Wars).

All in all, Josephus very much favors the term "principal men" and uses it in a variety of contexts, including using it in the first person ("our") on at least one occasion.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Layman ]</p>

Layman

Another note on the "principal men among us" text.

I have already shown that its use was not restircted to discussing "of Jerusalem" or "of the city." I have also shown that there is at least one reference to "our principal men" (first person plural possessive). I also thought I would see if it was unusual for Josephus to refer to the first person plural, and especially using the phrase "among us."

It appears that his use of the term or related terms is not uncommon.

"Now Eleazar the high priest, one not inferior to any other of that dignity among us, did not envy the forenamed king the participation of that advantage, which otherwise he would for certain have denied him, but that he knew the custom of our nation was, to hinder nothing of what we esteemed ourselves from being communicated to others."

Preface 1.3.

"And whatsoever is done among us, Whether it be good, or whether it be bad, comes to pass according to their prophecies; but of every one of these we shall speak hereafter."

Antiquities 10.2.2.

"And this rule continues among us to this day, that if there be a necessity, we may fight on sabbath days."

Antiquities 12.6.2.

"because those writings are not every where to be met with, nor do lie in public places, but among us ourselves, and certain other barbarous nations, while there is no contradiction to be made against the decrees of the Romans, for they are laid up in the public places of the
cities, and are extant still in the capitol, and engraven upon pillars of brass; nay, besides this, Julius Caesar made a pillar of brass for the Jews at Alexandria, and declared publicly that they were citizens of Alexandria."

Antiquities 14.10.1

"And now, upon the approach of the feast of tabernacles, which is a festival very much observed among us, he let those days pass over, and both he and the rest of the people were therein very merry; yet did the envy which at this time arose in him cause him to make haste to do what lie was about, and provoke him to it; for when this youth Aristobulus, who was now in the seventeenth year of his age, went up to the altar, according to the law, to offer the sacrifices, and this with the ornaments of his high priesthood, and when he performed the sacred offices,"

Antiquities 15.3.2

"We have thought it proper to relate these facts to our readers, how strange soever they be, and to declare what hath happened among us, because many of these Essens have, by their excellent virtue, been thought worthy of this knowledge of Divine revelations"

Antiquities 15.10.5

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Layman ]</p>

Peter Kirby

Layman writes:

Meier does discuss Josephus' use of poietes and notes that it is not surpising that Josephus would use the word in this way and he also notes that Josephus uses related (or derivative) terms to discuss "doing things."

"[I]t is used elsewhere in Josephus only in the sense of "poet"; but Josephus ... has a fondness for resolving a simple verb into two words: a noun expressing the agent and the auxiliary verb (e.g., krites einai for the simple krinein). Moreover, Josephus uses such cognates as poieteos, 'that which is to be done," poiesis, "doing, causing" (as well as "poetry, poem"), and poietikos, 'that which causes something" (as well as "poetic")."

John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew, Vol. 1., at 81.


Meier's examples are irrelevant. It is easy to see why. None of them refer to the word used nine times in the singular or plural for 'poet', and that is the word being analyzed. That is the word that Josephus uses nine times elsewhere in the sense of 'poet' or 'poets'.

The first analogy that I stumbled on is 'plumber'. We might use the word 'plumb' as a verb to refer to examining closely or in depth (or perhaps to sealing with lead). But that does not mean that we would use the word 'plumber' to refer to anything other than an occupation having to do with pipes.

best,
Peter Kirby

Layman

Well, yes, we might use the term plumber to refer to someone whose job it is to track down and stop leaks of information. But in any event, plumber is a rather unique term -- a term of art. Are you saying that "poietes" is a term of art in ancient literature?

Because Josephus was aware of and used so many words related to or derived from "poietes" to indicate "that which is done," "doing," "causing," "and "that which causes," it is not all that surprising that he would eventually use the root or related word to mean "doer."

Besides, it is not all that unusual for ancient authors writing in Greek to use a word in an unusual style or variant meaning. "The undisputed epistles of Paul have their share not only of hapex legomena but also of Pauline words and phrases that Paul uses in a given passage with an unusual meaning or construction. Especially since Josephus is dealing in the Testimonium with peculiar material, drawn perhaps from a special source, we need not be surprised if his usage differs slightly at a few points." John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew, at 83.

Peter Kirby

I thought I should acknowledge my source for the claim that Josephus does not use the first person plural with reference to the 'principal men'.

<a href="http://members.aol.com/fljosephus/testhist.htm" target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/fljosephus/testhist.htm</a>
"There are stylistic peculiarities that are not found in Josephus, such as the use of the first person in 'the principal men among us'."

Although I hadn't looked at it too closely up to now, I have now searched all four works of Josephus for the phrase 'principal men' as translated by Whiston. I will report my results.

Vorkosigan writes: Which reminds me. Re: your discussion on 'principal men' with PK, I ran it through War and Antiquities and found 58 instances, many unlinked to any city, including a few late in Ant.... So it looks like you are right on that score.

Vorkosigan may have misunderstood the important claim being made because of the examples that were given in the current recension of the essay. At the time of the current recension of the essay, I had looked only at the autobiography for these examples, and it just happened that the instances there referred to the city of Jerusalem. But the argument does not depend on the idea that Josephus always uses 'leading men' or 'principal men' in association with Jerusalem (or a city). The argument depends on the claim that Josephus never uses 'principal men' in association with the first person plural. The claim made by the mentioned web site is not affected by examples such as 'principal men of the nations' (Ant. 11.6.2) and 'the principal men of Syria' (Ant. 12.6.3).

First, let's take a look at the expression in Ant. 18.3.3.

kai auton endeixei tôn prôtôn andrôn par' hêmin staurôi epitetimêkotos Pilatou

kai - and
auton - masc acc sg - him (Jesus, object of verb)
endeixei - fem nom dual attic epic contr - a pointing out
tôn - masc gen pl indeclform - of the
prôtôn - masc gen pl - principal (first)
andrôn - masc gen pl indeclform - men
par' - "(prep + dat.) at, at the side of, beside, at the house of" (From Alpha to Omega, p. 402)
hêmin - masc dat 1st pl indeclform - us
staurôi - masc dat sg - to the cross
epitetimêkotos - perf part act masc gen sg attic ionic redupl - had ruled
Pilatou - masc gen sg - out of Pilate

Crib: "and him, (at) a pointing out of the principal men at the side of us, to the cross had ruled out of Pilate"

I am unclear as to what "attic epic contr" means, so that is perhaps where that 'at' comes from. I welcome clarification and correction.

Whiston translates: "Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross"

Now I will list all of the examples I found in which "principal men" appears and refers to Jews and not foreigners.

"So Aretas united the forces of the Arabians and of the Jews together, and pressed on the siege vigorously. As this happened at the time when the feast of unleavened bread was celebrated, which we call the passover, the principal men among the Jews left the country, and fled into Egypt." - Antiquities 14.2.1

"But now the principal men among the Jews, when they saw Antipater and his sons to grow so much in the good-will the nation bare to them, and in the revenues which they received out of Judea, and out of Hyrcanus's own wealth, they became ill-disposed to him; for indeed Antipater had contracted a friendship with the Roman emperors; and when he had prevailed with Hyrcanus to send them money, he took it to himself, and purloined the present intended, and sent it as if it were his own, and not Hyrcanus's gift to them." - Antiquities 14.9.3

"The principal men also of the Jews came thither, to accuse Phasaelus and Herod; and they said that Hyrcanus had indeed the appearance of reigning, but that these men had all the power: but Antony paid great respect to Herod, who was come to him to make his defense against his accusers, on which account his adversaries could not so much as obtain a hearing; which favor Herod had gained of Antony by money." - Antiquities 14.12.2

"And thus they all said, and their courage was still equal to their profession, and equal to that with which they readily set about this undertaking. And when the king had ordered them to be bound, he sent them to Jericho, and called together the principal men among the Jews; and when they were come, he made them assemble in the theater, and because he could not himself stand, he lay upon a couch, and enumerated the many labors that he had long endured on their account, and his building of the temple, and what a vast charge that was to him; while the Asamoneans, during the hundred and twenty-five years of their government, had not been able to perform any so great a work for the honor of God as that was; that he had also adorned it with very valuable donations, on which account he hoped that he had left himself a memorial, and procured himself a reputation after his death." - Antiquities 17.6.3

"He commanded that all the principal men of the entire Jewish nation, wheresoever they lived, should be called to him." - Antiquities 17.6.5

"But in the tenth year of Archelaus's government, both his brethren, and the principal men of Judea and Samaria, not being able to bear his barbarous and tyrannical usage of them, accused him before Caesar, and that especially because they knew he had broken the commands of Caesar, which obliged him to behave himself with moderation among them." - Antiquities 17.13.2

"All sorts of misfortunes also sprang from these men, and the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree; one violent war came upon us after another, and we lost our friends which used to alleviate our pains; there were also very great robberies and murder of our principal men." - Antiquities 18.1.1

polemôn te epagôgais ouch hoion to apauston tên bian echein, kai aposterêsin philôn, hoi kai epelaphrunoien ton ponon, lêistêriôn te megalôn epithesesin kai diaphthorais andrôn tôn prôtôn, doxa men tou orthoumenou tôn koinôn, ergôi de oikeiôn kerdôn elpisin.

"And when Artabanus perceived that the plot laid against him was not to be avoided, because it was laid by the principal men, and those a great many in number, and that it would certainly take effect, — when he had estimated the number of those that were truly faithful to him, as also of those who were already corrupted, but were deceitful in the kindness they professed to him, and were likely, upon trial, to go over to his enemies, he made his escape to the upper provinces, where he afterwards raised a great army out of the Dahae and Sacre, and fought with his enemies, and retained his principality." - Antiquities 18.4.4

"But as he was marching very busily, and leading his army through Judea, the principal men met him, and desired that he would not thus march through their land; for that the laws of their country would not permit them to overlook those images which were brought into it, of which there were a great many in their ensigns; so he was persuaded by what they said, and changed that resolution of his which he had before taken in this matter." - Antiquities 18.5.3

"Now Agrippa stood in his bonds before the royal palace, and leaned on a certain tree for grief, with many others,. who were in bonds also; and as a certain bird sat upon the tree on which Agrippa leaned, (the Romans call this bird bubo,) [an owl,] one of those that were bound, a German by nation, saw him, and asked a soldier who that man in purple was; and when he was informed that his name was Agrippa, and that he was by nation a Jew, and one of the principal men of that nation, he asked leave of the soldier to whom he was bound, (22) to let him come nearer to him, to speak with him; for that he had a mind to inquire of him about some things relating to his country; which liberty, when he had obtained, and as he stood near him, he said thus to him by an interpreter..." - Antiquities 18.6.7

"When matters were in this state, Aristobulus, king Agrippa's brother, and Heleias the Great, and the other principal men of that family with them, went in unto Petronius, and besought him, that since he saw the resolution of the multitude, he would not make any alteration, and thereby drive them to despair; but would write to Caius, that the Jews had an insuperable aversion to the reception of the statue, and how they continued with him, and left of the tillage off their ground: that they were not willing to go to war with him, because they were not able to do it, but were ready to die with pleasure, rather than suffer their laws to be transgressed: and how, upon the land's continuing unsown, robberies would grow up, on the inability they would be under of paying their tributes; and that Caius might be thereby moved to pity, and not order any barbarous action to be done to them, nor think of destroying the nation: that if he continues inflexible in his former opinion to bring a war upon them, he may then set about it himself." - Antiquities 18.8.4

"Accordingly, they gladly agreed so to do; and when this was done by the principal men of both nations, they soon agreed to a reconciliation; and when they were so agreed, they both knew that the great design of such their union would be their common hatred to the Jews." - Antiquities 18.9.9

"But Fadus, as soon as he was come procurator into Judea, found quarrelsome doings between the Jews that dwelt in Perea, and the people of Philadelphia, about their borders, at a village called Mia, that was filled with men of a warlike temper; for the Jews of Perea had taken up arms without the consent of their principal men, and had destroyed many of the Philadelphians." - Antiquities 20.1.1

"And when her son Izates was informed of this famine, he sent great sums of money to the principal men in Jerusalem." - Antiquities 20.2.5

"He also ordered the principal men, both of the Samaritans and of the Jews, as also Cumanus the procurator, and Ceier the tribune, to go to Italy to the emperor, that he might hear their cause, and determine their differences one with another." - Antiquities 20.6.2

"And now arose a sedition between the high priests and the principal men of the multitude of Jerusalem; each of which got them a company of the boldest sort of men, and of those that loved innovations about them, and became leaders to them; and when they struggled together, they did it by casting reproachful words against one another, and by throwing stones also." - Antiquities 20.8.8

"but the Jews petitioned him to give them leave to send an embassage about this matter to Nero; for they said they could not endure to live if any part of the temple should be demolished; and when Festus had given them leave so to do, they sent ten of their principal men to Nero, as also Ismael the high priest, and Helcias, the keeper of the sacred treasure." - Antiquities 20.8.11

"But for some of our own principal men, their mouths are wide open, and their tongues loosed presently, for gain and law-suits, but quite muzzled up when they are to write history, where they must speak truth and gather facts together with a great deal of pains; and so they leave the writing such histories to weaker people, and to such as are not acquainted with the actions of princes." - Wars 0.5

tois de gnêsiois pros men ta lêmmata kai tas dikas kechênen eutheôs to stoma kai glôssa lelutai, pros de tên historian, entha chrê talêthê legein kai meta pollou ponou ta pragmata sullegein, pephimôntai parentes tois asthenesterois kai mêde ginôskousi tas praxeis tôn hêgemonôn graphein. timasthô dê par' hêmin to tês historias alêthes, epei par' Hellêsin êmelêtai.

"However, after this, there came a hundred of the principal men among the Jews to Daphne by Antioch to Antony, who was already in love with Cleopatra to the degree of slavery; these Jews put those men that were the most potent, both in dignity and eloquence, foremost, and accused the brethren." - Wars 1.12.5

"And now the affairs of Galilee were put in such disorder after this victory of Antigonus's, that those of Antigonus's party brought the principal men that were on Herod's side to the lake, and there drowned them." - Wars 1.17.2

"After this he marched through Jericho, as making what haste he could to be avenged on his brother's murderers; where happened to him a providential sign, out of which, when he had unexpectedly escaped, he had the reputation of being very dear to God; for that evening there feasted with him many of the principal men; and after that feast was over, and all the guests were gone out, the house fell down immediately." - Wars 1.17.4

" At this time it was that the enterprises of the seditious at Jerusalem were very formidable; the principal men among them purchasing leave of Albinus to go on with their seditious practices; while that part of the people who delighted in disturbances joined themselves to such as had fellowship with Albinus; and every one of these wicked wretches were encompassed with his own band of robbers, while he himself, like an arch-robber, or a tyrant, made a figure among his company, and abused his authority over those about him, in order to plunder those that lived quietly." - Wars 2.14.1

"But John, and twelve of the principal men with him, went to Florus, to Sebaste, and made a lamentable complaint of their case, and besought him to help them; and with all possible decency, put him in mind of the eight talents they had given him; but he had the men seized upon, and put in prison, and accused them for carrying the books of the law out of Cesarea." - Wars 2.14.5

"And this was the true beginning of our war with the Romans; for they rejected the sacrifice of Caesar on this account; and when many of the high priests and principal men besought them not to omit the sacrifice, which it was customary for them to offer for their princes, they would not be prevailed upon." - Wars 2.17.2

"However, this man did not begin to teach them wisdom by arms, but sent among them privately some of the principal men, and thereby entreated them to be quiet, and not provoke the Roman army against them; but the seditious made a jest of the entreaties of Tiberius, and reproached him for so doing." - Wars 2.18.7

"In the mean time, many of the principal men of the city were persuaded by Ananus, the son of Jonathan, and invited Cestius into the city, and were about to open the gates for him; but he overlooked this offer, partly out of his anger at the Jews, and partly because he did not thoroughly believe they were in earnest; whence it was that he delayed the matter so long, that the seditious perceived the treachery, and threw Ananus and those of his party down from the wall, and, pelting them with stones, drove them into their houses; but they stood themselves at proper distances in the towers, and threw their darts at those that were getting over the wall." - Wars 2.19.5

"He determined, therefore, to give an exact account of affairs to the principal men at Jerusalem by a letter, that he might not, by too much aggrandizing the power of the enemy, make them too timorous; nor, by relating that their power beneath the truth, might encourage them to stand out when they were perhaps disposed to repentance." - Wars 3.7.2

"And besides these, they did the same to the principal men of the country." - Wars 4.3.4

"They also set the principal men at variance one with another, by several sorts of contrivances and tricks, and gained the opportunity of doing what they pleased, by the mutual quarrels of those who might have obstructed their measures; till at length, when they were satiated with the unjust actions they had done towards men, they transferred their contumelious behavior to God himself, and came into the sanctuary with polluted feet." - Wars 4.3.6

"So they called together, by a public proclamation, seventy of the principal men of the populace, for a show, as if they were real judges, while they had no proper authority." - Wars 4.5.4

These are the examples that I found, excepting the cases of foreigners.

Layman writes: But when writing a history of the Jewish people, Josephus quite logically uses the Josephus phrase "principal men" adds the term "among us."

I argue that, in all the instances of "principal men" (prôtôi andrôi) in the Antiquities of the Jews never does he do what you suggest and add the term 'among us' - except, as you suggest, in Ant. 18.3.3.

On the other hand, there are occasions in his histories in which Josephus - illogically? - uses the phrase 'principal men in Jerusalem' (Ant. 20.2.5), 'principal men at Jerusalem' (Wars 3.7.2), 'principal men of the city' (Wars 2.19.5). Josephus uses 'principal men among the Jews' in Wars 1.12.5, Ant. 14.2.1, Ant. 14.9.3, and Ant. 17.6.3 in which Josephus could have rather used 'principal men among us' if that were his idiom. (You have apparently found some of these examples yourself.)

There are two passages in Whiston's translation that could be urged against the claim made in the web site mentioned above, which says that the first person plural was not used with reference to 'principal men': Wars 0.5 and Ant. 18.1.1. For this reason, I have included the Greek for these passages above.

The passage in Wars does not use any form of prôtôi andrôi but rather uses gnêsiois, so it may be dismissed as an example of the phrase in question.

Here is the Greek phrase in Ant. 18.1.1.

lêistêriôn te megalôn epithesesin kai diaphthorais andrôn tôn prôtôn

lêistêriôn - neut gen pl - a band of robbers
te - and
megalôn - neut gen pl - big, great
epithesesin - fem dat pl nu_movable - a laying on
kai - and
diaphthorais - fem dat pl - destruction, ruin, blight, death
andrôn - masc gen pl indeclform - men
tôn - masc gen pl indeclform - the
prôtôn - masc gen pl - first

Literal translation: "and with a laying on of great bands of robbers, and with death of first men"

Whiston writes: "there were also very great robberies and murder of our principal men."

Whiston's translation seems intended to make the text easier to understand in English by referring to robberies instead of the actions of robbers and by specifying who the principal men are. However, there is not a scintilla of a first person plural in the phrase, so this cannot serve as a counter-example.

Layman writes: I have already shown that its use was not restircted to discussing "of Jerusalem" or "of the city." I have also shown that there is at least one reference to "our principal men" (first person plural possessive). I also thought I would see if it was unusual for Josephus to refer to the first person plural, and especially using the phrase "among us."

I agree that its use was not restricted to "of Jerusalem" or "of the city," although the current recension of my essay gives this mistaken impression with the examples from the autobiography. I disagree that Ant. 18.1.1 is an example of the first person plural being used with reference to prôtôn andrôn because no first person plural word is used in that phrase. I have never said that it would have been unusual for Josephus to say "among us," only that nowhere (else) is Josephus seen to say 'principal men among us' or otherwise associate the first person plural with prôtôi andrôi.

Layman writes: Accordingly, I believe the reference to "the principle men among us" indicates Josephan style and content, not Christian interpolation.

You have written, "Josephus very much favors the term "principal men" and uses it in a variety of contexts." I agree with that. The phrase is so common that a scribe or any reader of Josephus could have used it either in imitation or by habit. However, the reference to Josephus "using it in the first person ('our') on at least one occasion" is based on a particular non-literal translation without a basis in the Greek wording. This indicates that, while "principal men" and the phrase "among us" were used on separate occasions in Josephus, an interpolator seems to have betyrayed his hand in putting these two phrases together when they are never together in the known authentic Josephus.

best,
Peter Kirby

Layman

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You have argued that the translation of "our principal men" is not literal and therefore not helpful.

But, we have disposed of the idea that Josephus restricts the use of the term "principal men" to "the city" or "Jeruslaem." We have seen that Josephus uses the term "principal men" in a variety of contexts. He have also determined that Josephus uses the phrase "among us" in a variety of contexts in Antiquities.

So both these phrases are typically Josephan. But you are arguing that because we find these two typically Josephan phrases together on only one occassion that proves they are an interpolation?

I'm not sure I buy that. Is there some rule of textual criticism you are following?

And is our interpolator really two then? Or more? One who cleverly mimics Josephan language and style and another who adds obviously nonJosephan remarks like "He was the Christ" and "he appeared to them alive on the third day"? How does this impact Olson's theory that Eusebius was the interpolator?

Peter Kirby

Layman writes: Well, yes, we might use the term plumber to refer to someone whose job it is to track down and stop leaks of information.

I just used the first analogy that came to mind, but this makes it even better. The word that is arguably non-Josephan has to have more than one meaning, or else it would be impossible to argue that the passage uses it in a meaning not typical of Josephus - there would only be one meaning, so it would have to be a meaning used by Josephus!

So, in this analogy, what we have here is a suspicious passage that uses the word 'plumber' as referring to one who stops information leaks when in all (other) uses the author refers to those who fix leaky faucets and unclog drains. Although perhaps not conclusive - it is possible that the author used it in a way that the author never does elsewhere just in this one suspicious passage - this does count as evidence against authenticity.

Layman writes: But in any event, plumber is a rather unique term -- a term of art. Are you saying that "poietes" is a term of art in ancient literature?

I am not sure what 'term of art' means. I am saying that Josephus uses the term as 'poet' or 'poets' in the nine (other) usages.

Layman writes: Because Josephus was aware of and used so many words related to or derived from "poietes" to indicate "that which is done," "doing," "causing," "and "that which causes," it is not all that surprising that he would eventually use the root or related word to mean "doer."

The main purpose of my example was to show that the range of meaning of a given word is not determined by the variety of meaning of etymologically related but different words. So, sticking with the example, the author might not use 'plumber' for someone who examines things closely just because the author used 'plumb' for close examination. (I am not saying that this analogy works in all respects, only that it works in the respect that different words, even though similar, do not determine the usage of the word in question.)

Layman writes: Besides, it is not all that unusual for ancient authors writing in Greek to use a word in an unusual style or variant meaning. "The undisputed epistles of Paul have their share not only of hapex legomena but also of Pauline words and phrases that Paul uses in a given passage with an unusual meaning or construction. Especially since Josephus is dealing in the Testimonium with peculiar material, drawn perhaps from a special source, we need not be surprised if his usage differs slightly at a few points." John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew, at 83.

I would say that this consideration, the fact that the term is used consistently elsewhere in a different way, points against authenticity even if it does not establish it conclusively by itself.

Perhaps more importantly, this could be used as a counter-argument. It is often claimed that the hypothetical core is consistent with the style of Josephus. This argument cannot be maintained soundly when there is a word in the hypothetical core that goes against the usage of the word in all other points of Josephus. So the argument for consistent Josephan style of the expurgated Testimonium is seriously weakened by this point.

best,
Peter Kirby