Ensign Steve

Magus,

Sorry for beating this dead horse, but your conclusion simply does not follow from the premise.

How is your assertion, "The punishment is eternal, because the offense is against an eternal being," different from my assertion, "The punishment is finite, because the offense is carried out by a finite being"?

Can you can give me one single valid reason why your assertion is better than mine? Until you do, I reject your claim, and The problem of punishment out of proportion to the crime remains unsolved.

Repeatedly asserting your claim does not make it so.
Telling me that I just don't understand is not a valid argument form.
Saying that the human mind can't understand is a weak dodge of the question.

If you want to play in a philosophical debate forum, you need to play by the rules. I don't go to a church and tell the parishoners to abandon their faith. How can you come on an atheist philosophy forum and expect us to abandon logic? If you are confused about logical fallacies or what makes an argument valid, read the FAQ.

Jen

Magus55

I believe you responded before i finished Jenn - edited my post to try and explain it better.

Magus55

Because you don't understand the description in the OT - you want to be separated from him for eternity because of the flood?

Cthulhu

How do you define holy and righteous? That which is like, approved of, or sanctified by God?

So what you're basically saying is that God is like himself: God-like.

Maybe you should worship me instead because I'm Cthulhu-like. Or Zeus because he's Zeus-like.

Perfect in comparison to what? To himself?

God created man. Man sins. Therefore God created sin. Sin is a crime against God. By creating sin, God sinned against himself.

God should go straight to hell.

And you define unjust and unrighteous to mean ungodly, right? So it is impossible for God to do that which is unlike himself?

So you don't believe God is omnipotent?



Then why did God create something which offended himself? Is God a masochist?

You are offending the epitome of itself? Then why did the epitome of itself create that which offends itself so completely, knowing it was going to be offended before it even created the offense to begin with?


Then God should be eternally punished for violating himself.

So God is fair because God is like himself?

Thanks for clearing that up.


A human, corrupted perspective which God created (according to you).

So, to put it more succinctly: God is what God does, and God does what he does because of what he is?

Oh dear, I've gone cross-eyed.

winstonjen

As if the flood was his only atrocity.

Cthulhu

So the God of the OT is not the same God of the NT? Otherwise, your assertion makes zero sense.

braces_for_impact

I dissagree. A perfect, omniscient being cannot have emotion. Humans are emotional beings in response to unknown knowledge. I.E. a wife who finds a husband is cheating. Since god is omniscient, he cannot be surprised by knowledge. Another reason people feel emotion is because of desire. People desire because they lack equilibrium, they have wants and needs. A perfect being lacks nothing, and therefore has no desires.

Why? He KNEW this was going to happen, before all of creation, according to your doctrine. If I loved someone, and I had the capacity to see that they didn't suffer, I would do so. People die of starvation, disease, natural disaster, etc. This is not a direct cause of their actions. Saying this takes place because of the fall of humanity through Adam and Eve shows how unjust god is, as he has punished billions for the "crimes" of two people.



So much for god's mercy being eternal. Patience I am told is a virtue. Certainly god, who is eternal can wait 90 years for someone to figure it all out? 90 Years to god is an insignificant speck is it not? Even Methuselah's lifetime would hardly be noticed by god one would think.

How just and rightous of him to create us knowing full well it would turn out this way. This is my problem with christianity, it makes humans worthless in their own right.

Someone asked you earlier if you were able to make yourself honestly believe in something, perhaps the tooth fairy? Are you able to do this? Should I be expected to?

A perfect, eternal being would have no limits. Earlier you said god could not go against his own nature. So now the eternal, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent being has certain things he is incapable of?

How can hell exist as a terrible place despite god's attempt not to make it that way, especialy considering it exists by his very providence? Since many of the atheists on this board are unbelievers and according to you sinners, how come we haven't self destructed? If we self destruct in hell, how is the torment eternal?

So my only crime being nonbelief (except for maybe the few sexual sins ) I get thrown in the mess with these people? This is perfect justice?



So not only do you receive eternal torture in hell, but if you're an unlucky atheist who has lived a good life, been kind to people, and lived by the golden rule, you also get to suffer horribly during the 'last days' before you die?

So just chuck 'em and be done with it eh? So if you have any good friends or relatives that are in hell while you're out enjoying eternal bliss that wouldn't effect you? Not even a little? So what you're saying is once you get to heaven either your memories are erased (in which case you aren't really you), or you lose your free will. Doesn't sound like that great of a place to be to me, especially for eternity.

Magus55

No, it was a different time period and people were even more heinous than today - God had to be harsh with them.

Let me explain the flood for you - not that it will make you understand it much better.

The days of Noah were nothing short of apocolyptic. The world was worse than it was today - and i mean much worse - the world as we know it is like woodstock and the hippy days compared to the world during Noah's time. More crimes, hate, killing, violence than we can imagine. People didn't care about anything and there didn't exist ANY moral or "good" people except Noah and his family. God gave the people of the time decades and decades to mend their ways and seek forgiveness - he repeatedly over that time span warned them of the judgement they would face if they continued living the way they did. They say basically would many atheists say now - whatever we don't need you, show us your worst - they loved living in sin - hated anything that was good. And since God is omniscient, he saw their fate, including the childrens fate. They had zero chance for remorse and seeking forgiveness - they were completely lost and hopeless - too in love with their own desires, pleasures, and sins to heed God's repeated warnings. Because of how bad the times were, God knew the future of everyone - and every young child would have grown up, fitting in with the chaos of society - the children would have become criminals, violent and ultimately rejected God just like the adults - they were heading for their own destruction and God knew it - they were going to go to Hell. So God decided enough is enough - the world had reached the absolute worst it could get - with no chance of redemption for anyone except Noah. So God flooded the earth and wiped out the chaos and violence and evil people. The children were killed because of what they would have become. God saved them from their own destruction because children aren't held accountable until a certain age. All those children are now in eternal paradise playing, having fun, laughing - basking in God's love. Where as, had he not destroyed the world - those children would have grown up, rejected Him and ended up in Hell.

You guys value life above all else because thats all you have. Once your dead - thats it for you ( or so you believe). Life on Earth is precious, but it pales in comparison to Heaven. Our time on earth is an eye blink compared to eternity - yet due to its trials and tests - it determines who wants to really be with God and who wants to live in their sins. While God killed the children, he did it to save them from themselves - because of how insignificant life on earth is to Heaven anything is a small price to pay to be with God ( as much as you disagree). To you, killing the children was the worst attrocity in history - to Christians and God - it was a small price to pay to save the children from eternal death.

And again, you obviously disagree with that - you consider it worse than Hitler - but you can't see the big picture - to you Earth is everything - to God its almost nothing. Your eternal future is your ultimate destiny - Earth is only the testing grounds to determine where you choose to go.

So i consider it an act of mercy on the children. Would you have rather them lived their lives out to follow society and become worse than Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Bin Laden, only to spend eternity suffering for their sins and rejection of God despite his warnings - or would you rather them be killed quickly while they aren't held accountable so that they never have to endure what they would ultimately become? It was an act of mercy on behalf of the children - and in no other time period in history have people been so deserving of death as the days of Noah.

Non believers value Earthly things, believers value spiritual/Godly things - and most true Christians would give up anything including their lives to be with God in heaven and escape the pain of sin and destruction. Its God's creation, he knows all and sees how - he saw the path the children were heading and stopped them before they reached the point of no return. Whether you think thats wrong or not doesn't really matter - its Gods rules and plan - not yours.

Cthulhu

Wait just a darn tootin' second. You just finished telling us that God is beyond our ability to comprehend, now you're telling us he's just like us.

You need to get your story straight.

How can he be hurt by the actions of his own creations when he knew before he created them how they would act?

Why? Stop throwing out assertions and give me reasons.

Death-bound state? If you're already dead, how can you be bound for further death?

So the creator purposefully created flawed creations, and punishes his creations for being flawed?


Salvation from the mess he created in the first place?


Then he isn't perfect.

They wouldn't need salvation if he was as perfect as you claim.

Guilty of not living up to the standards of the creator who purposefully created them to not live up to his standards?

God created sin. Hence if hell is where sin is thrown in to run rampant, then God did design hell.

So hell is the sum of God's screw-ups?

God created Satan, hence he created all the evil and sin Satan supposedly causes. So once again, God should go to hell.

So God allows the evil he created to run amok until he graciously decides to step in and send himself back to punish his own screw-ups?

So, once again, hell is the dumping ground for all of the shit that God created in the first place.

Ensign Steve

Thank you for pointing that out. My post was indeed written in response to the earlier version of that post.

Here is where I am having the problem. You keep giving me the What's and the Who's, but I want the Why's. You keep explaining your position, I am asking you to defend it. I want you to give me a valid reason to believe what you're saying. I'm not asking for more illogical stuff to believe. I want a valid argument for your position.

Valid arguments are not:

God says so.
God's ways are mysterious.
God does not have to justify his actions to us.
You just don't understand.
You just have to have faith.
Humans can't understand god's ways.
Just because that's the way it is.
I don't know how else to explain it.

Those are church arguments. You want to put forth those arguments, go to church. You want to play here, you need to play by the rules here. If you need help with valid argument forms, read the FAQ.

Until you give me a valid, logical reason why a sin against an eternal being requires eternal punishment, I reject your claim and The problem of punishment out of proportion to the crime remains unsolved.

Jen