Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GaryP · 05-11-2002, 07:05 PM

A jr. Hi principal in my town was on the front page of the local paper 2 years ago. She was pictured praying with some kids and adults in front of the school. The article said there were 6 kids. There were other teachers and some ministers there also.

Knowing that this was questionable, I sent a copy of the article to AU. They wrote a complaint to the Board of Education.

The board claimed that this was a community event, not a student-intiated event. Therefore, the participation of staff was completely legal.

They did agree to put up a sign saying it was not a school sponsored event and to make sure it was "well before" the school day. ( I think this year's event started about 45 min. before the start of the official school day.)

Americans United accepted this compromise.

Has anyone else encountered this type of word games in your community to justify this type of thing? If the teachers & kids only wanted to get together and pray they could surely find a church in this town.

I am also a little dissapointed with AU. The intent of court rulings prohibiting staff led prayer surely was aimed at it occuring on school property.

Toto · 05-11-2002, 11:43 PM

History of See you at the Pole

It is clear that students have the right to hold prayer sessions before school. It is more of a problem when teachers or other authority figures from the school join them.

I found this conservative legal site which advises teachers:

Quote:

there has been very little question that See You at the Pole is constitutional. Indeed, for groups, like the National Legal Foundation, which stand ready to defend the religious rights of those who would like to participate in See You at the Pole, the only questions that are routinely asked are whether teachers may participate and whether elementary-aged children may participate.

Because these matters have not been litigated, the answer must be tentative.
. . .

Like students, teachers do not shed their constitutional rights at the schoolhouse gate. Tinker, 393 U.S. at 506. However, teachers� rights in the public school are not co-extensive with rights of adults in other settings. Roberts v. Madigan, 921 F.2d 1047, 1056 (10th Cir. 1990). Therefore, whether teachers can actively participate in See You at the Pole depends on whether they are acting in their official capacity or as a citizen.

When teachers acting in their official capacity seek to participate in religious activities, courts typically hold that their free exercise rights can be restricted. Students, parents, or other members of the public may perceive teacher participation as placing the state�s imprimatur on the event. Id. at 1057. A United States District Court found that teachers, in their official capacity, could be present at student prayer at the school flagpole as long as they are acting in a supervisory capacity, without participating in the prayer. Daughtery v. Vanguard Charter Sch. Academy, 116 F. Supp. 2d 897, 910-11 (W.D. Mich. S.D. 2000).

If teachers, however, are acting as citizens, then they can pray at See You at the Pole. The United States Supreme Court has held that teachers cannot be

compelled to relinquish the First Amendment rights they would otherwise enjoy as citizens to comment on matters of public interest in connection with operation of the public school in which they work.

Madison Sch. Dist. v. Wisconsin Emp. Comm�n, 429 U.S. 167, 175 (1976)(citing Pickering v. Bd. of Educ., 391 U.S. 563, 568 (1968); see also Keyishian v. Bd. of Regents, 385 U.S. 589 (1967); Shelton v. Tucker, 364 U.S. 479 (1960); Wieman v. Upegraff, 344 U.S. 183 (1952)7 Praying for the nation and the school should be likened to commenting on matters of public interest. Where a State has opened a forum, such as a school, for direct citizen involvement, then teachers cannot be excluded. Madison Sch. Dist., 429 U.S. at 175. Therefore, if the school allows, for example, the Boy Scouts to meet at the school, it cannot stop a teacher, acting as a citizen, from praying at See You at the Pole.

. . .

Some states may also provide statutory protection for teachers. For example, the Tennessee legislature has recognized the constitutional rights of teachers and passed an act that protects the rights of school employees to read the Bible, pray quietly, meet with other employees to pray, and wear religious garb. Tenn. Code Ann. ��49-6-8001 to 8005 (2000).

Teachers have two options when it comes to their presence at See You at the Pole. Teachers can either be non-participating state actors, by acting in a supervisory capacity, or can participate and pray while acting as a non-state actor in their citizen capacity. Teachers must make sure not to blur the lines between their official capacity and their citizen capacity. Those teachers who want to be perceived as non-state actors should not volunteer to supervise the event, personally announce the event in their classrooms, or encourage or discourage students� participation. In order to maintain the line between their citizen capacity and their official capacity, teachers should walk to the flagpole from off campus as opposed to exiting from the school building and should not address school-related activities or assignments during the See You at the Pole event.

AU may not have wanted to get involved in litigation where the issues are so open to interpretation

Buffman · 05-12-2002, 02:29 AM

I have often wondered why those who do not support or approve of public displays of piety on government property don't use the identical rulings, which permit such overly zealous religiousness, to establish their own displays of reasoned belief on these same properties. Why not "See You at the Reasoning (separation of church and state)Pole" days/campaigns. Rather than complaining about these gatherings which pay public homage to a specific supernatural god, why not pay demonstrative public homage to the Constitution and Bill of Rights...or even other supernatural gods....as a method of driving home the realization of American pluralism?

I suspect that the real, often unstated, concern is that certain Christian religionists are simply better organized, supported and financed. This can be most frustrating for those who recognize just how misguided their actions and words really are.

Gary, I do understand that some folk's job security (and pursuit of happiness) could/would be at greater risk than that of others in the identical profession. That will always be the case where a specific religious sect controls the governmental power of hiring and firing...and invokes silent religious tests in the process. When and where that happens becomes the time and place to seek national legal support. Until such time, find creative ways to make the favorable religionist rulings work for you...because much of their legality is dependent on their non-discriminatory and equitable applicability.

(Perhaps these Forums are an appropriate place to ask for and discuss some imaginative possibilities along these lines.)

GaryP · 05-12-2002, 04:14 AM

Toto And Buffman;

Thanks for the helpful and thoughtful replies.

I have thought of organizing a "Freethought Rally" but I must admit I am concerned about my job security, my personal security and my family's security. (We had many threatening messages 3 years ago when I asked to put up an Atheist holiday greeting along with the city's baby Jesus.)

My problem with this issue is that all agree that teachers can't "encourage or discourage participation" yet they can simply call themselves private citizens while on campus and all is OK. IMO, as a teacher myself, when I am on my school campus, I represent my school. How could a child perceive it otherwise?

One can get very fatigued of hearing all the talk of god not being allowed in school yet one can circumvent such an important principle by simply doing what Lancaaster schools did.

What would prevent this principal from having revivals in the school auditorium for kids as long as it is 45 min after the school day?
Apparently, nothing.

And I am certainly open to any ideas.
Thanks again!

Toto · 05-12-2002, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GaryP:
What would prevent this principal from having revivals in the school auditorium for kids as long as it is 45 min after the school day?
Apparently, nothing.

Actually, the Supreme Court has held that religious groups can schedule their revivals immediately after the school day.

I wish I knew of a good solution. Are there any freethought groups in your area, or a local chapter of Americans United? You might have to make some sort of common cause with the religiously indifferent and religious liberals if you want to sponsor a Separation celebration.

Buffman · 05-12-2002, 01:21 PM

GaryP,

Boy can I empathize. I have been a non-supernaturalist for more than 50 years. During my professional career, I tread very carefully and gingerly whenever the issue of religion and religious beliefs surfaced. It has only been since retirement in 1980, and no family responsibilities beyond myself, that I have taken a more outspoken public stance on these issues.

Evidently you have encountered much of the same type of intolerant Christian responses and activities that I did when attempting to present accurate historical enlightment to the central Florida newspaper reading public. (I was even advised that a local group of fundamentalist movers and shakers met specifically to determine how best to silence me and one other outspoken church-state separation supporter. Fortunately I had been publicly tacit about my background and career, and had concentrated only on the issue at hand...in that case, creation science(?) being introduced into the public school science classrooms based on a so-called "Fairness Doctrine." I was further informed that when a report was presented to this covertly zealous group that enumerated my personal history in greater detail, they elected not to push forward with any plan of public character assassination. However, that did not prevent some of their less astute fellow-travelers from making threatening phone calls and writing personal attacks that surprisingly found their way into print.)

So I guess I'm saying that each of us must weigh many personal factors before determining that we are ready to chance the consequences of swimming up-stream against the increasingly strong current of national religious fervor. We already know that we can not turn to our elected representatives to support our cause. We know that the majority of our neighbors are either on the other side of the "wall" attempting to break it down or loathe to get involved. We know that our words and deeds could bring undesired and unfair negative consequences down on our loved ones. We seldom have the financial means or organized support to do much more than mumble and grumble individual dissatisfaction with the intolerance and injustices we see, hear and read every day being perpetrated by those with beatific smiles and denominational battle axes hidden behind their backs. So we come here and attempt to at least air our grievances with like minded citizens hoping to find viable, and inexpensive, ways to stem the tide of misinformation, disinformation, clever propaganda and outright lies.

The tactic that I have found that works best for me, in my circumstances, is a constant effort to educate the public with the most accurate history and evidence available that challenges, and puts at question, the claims of the religious right biblical inerrantists. Transforming the national psyche from one dependent on the supernatural for its survival and well being, and into one capable of independent critical thought that is accurately capable of determining what is right and wrong, is the goal I most cherish. Will my goal ever come to pass? Probably not until such time that humanity is capable of accurately understanding the scientific foundation behind the development of each human mind from the genetically passed blank slate to the environmentally and biologically written on one we carry into adulthood.

GaryP · 05-12-2002, 03:18 PM

Thanks to both of you again.

There is a group in Columbus (Humanist Community of Cetral Ohio). I actually belong but have never attended a meeting. I have always been fearful that if I did go I could not help but get more publically involved and therefore bring wrath upon my family again.

I think one must also be content with small success stories. The librarian at this same school has agreed to put Ed Buckner's book, Quotations supporting Separation of Church and State in the library. He even asked for another copy to put in the other JR. Hi building.

And with AU's help, the schools were forced to change their policy language concerning how to teach evolution and not the creation story. The school also no longer sings hymns at graduation.

This idea of teachers praying with kids on campus is just so wrong, it is hard to understand how anyone could see it differently.

Thanks. It is helpful to have someone to listen and to offer sage advice.

GaryP · 09-18-2002, 02:45 PM

Today was another SYATP day.

I sent a message to a local reporter showing him this from Jay Sekulow's group [http://www.aclj.org/askjay/011009_school_prayer.asp]aclj.org[/url]

Excerpt; (responding to a parent who is also a sub. teacher)

Jay Answers: As a parent, you should have no problem. Let the school administration know that parents are going to be on campus for a quiet prayer meeting. Because you are a substitute teacher, you can participate on a day when you are not teaching.

And this; freedomforum.org

Excerpt;

Maggie Garrett, an attorney in Montgomery for the American Civil Liberties Union of Alabama, said Pryor's advisory is correct, but the ACLU would be more specific and say that, "public school officials and teachers may not participate in, encourage, initiate or lead the event."

Anyway, he did look into it and this;

Lancaster Eagle-Gazette

was in the paper today.

I had the opportunity to go to 2 jr. his and the HS this morning. I saw a few kids at one jr.hi, none at the other and about 50 at the HS.

I believe they were all students.

Alonzo Fyfe · 09-18-2002, 04:21 PM

Several notes:

(1) I have no objection to SYATP -- as long as it is held well outside of normal school hours. The fact that a person is a teacher is not sufficient justification for silencing the teacher in saying or expressing his or her religious beliefs outside of the classroom, even to their students.

(2) Buffman has presented a worthwhile idea -- to use these freedoms to hold a different type of rally at the school, to gather and meet with students for a different sort of meeting.

(3) Where safety is an issue, the meeting can focus on something that more distantly touches on the main issues -- that touches on more neutral ground.

The option that I would offer is an after-hours logic class. Such a class would start, perhaps, by learning the informal fallacies, using an exerpt from a standard college-level introductory textbook. In these sessions, students are invited to bring in examples of fallacious reasoning and to discuss the fallacies they find -- in advertisements, in political speeches, in letters to the editor, in newspaper articles. The club could then proceed to discuss scientific reasoning (the scientific method) and an examination of pseudoscience. It could be called a "clear thinker's club" or something similar.

If you have a college or university nearby, talk to the local philosophy department -- you may be able to find somebody willing to provide some formal guidance.

(If anybody in the area of Boulder County, Colorado with contacts in any of the county schools would like to set something like this up, drop me a line.)

galiel · 09-18-2002, 05:44 PM

I am struck yet again by the fact that those who argue most vehemently that we are not "oppressed" and do not need to organize to protect our rights, never post on these topics, which are legion on this board. Not surprising, given that each of these topics negates their ostrichlike claim.

I would not presume to tell you what to do, but I urge you to at least consider the possibility of taking a principled stand and accepting the consequences. I cannot believe that you can be happy accepting the illegal and immoral restrictions that your community imposes on you, not by fiat but creating an environment of fear where you can't even speak up without worrying about your job. My experience is that standing up and speaking truth to power is a tremendously liberating act, and that it helps others tkae their first steps as well. However, each of us has to do what they feel is right.

The fact that so many of us feel unsupported and unempowered by the myriad of organizations that proport to represent us, is testimony to the fact that we need something more than we currently have.

Good luck. Given your circumstances, I hope you can find a way to support emerging efforts to bring these issues into the limelight and encourage public debate.

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: galiel ]</p>

05-11-2002, 07:05 PM	#1
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	See You at the Pole A jr. Hi principal in my town was on the front page of the local paper 2 years ago. She was pictured praying with some kids and adults in front of the school. The article said there were 6 kids. There were other teachers and some ministers there also. Knowing that this was questionable, I sent a copy of the article to AU. They wrote a complaint to the Board of Education. The board claimed that this was a community event, not a student-intiated event. Therefore, the participation of staff was completely legal. They did agree to put up a sign saying it was not a school sponsored event and to make sure it was "well before" the school day. ( I think this year's event started about 45 min. before the start of the official school day.) Americans United accepted this compromise. Has anyone else encountered this type of word games in your community to justify this type of thing? If the teachers & kids only wanted to get together and pray they could surely find a church in this town. I am also a little dissapointed with AU. The intent of court rulings prohibiting staff led prayer surely was aimed at it occuring on school property.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-12-2002, 02:29 AM	#3
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	I have often wondered why those who do not support or approve of public displays of piety on government property don't use the identical rulings, which permit such overly zealous religiousness, to establish their own displays of reasoned belief on these same properties. Why not "See You at the Reasoning (separation of church and state)Pole" days/campaigns. Rather than complaining about these gatherings which pay public homage to a specific supernatural god, why not pay demonstrative public homage to the Constitution and Bill of Rights...or even other supernatural gods....as a method of driving home the realization of American pluralism? I suspect that the real, often unstated, concern is that certain Christian religionists are simply better organized, supported and financed. This can be most frustrating for those who recognize just how misguided their actions and words really are. Gary, I do understand that some folk's job security (and pursuit of happiness) could/would be at greater risk than that of others in the identical profession. That will always be the case where a specific religious sect controls the governmental power of hiring and firing...and invokes silent religious tests in the process. When and where that happens becomes the time and place to seek national legal support. Until such time, find creative ways to make the favorable religionist rulings work for you...because much of their legality is dependent on their non-discriminatory and equitable applicability. (Perhaps these Forums are an appropriate place to ask for and discuss some imaginative possibilities along these lines.)

05-12-2002, 04:14 AM	#4
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	Toto And Buffman; Thanks for the helpful and thoughtful replies. I have thought of organizing a "Freethought Rally" but I must admit I am concerned about my job security, my personal security and my family's security. (We had many threatening messages 3 years ago when I asked to put up an Atheist holiday greeting along with the city's baby Jesus.) My problem with this issue is that all agree that teachers can't "encourage or discourage participation" yet they can simply call themselves private citizens while on campus and all is OK. IMO, as a teacher myself, when I am on my school campus, I represent my school. How could a child perceive it otherwise? One can get very fatigued of hearing all the talk of god not being allowed in school yet one can circumvent such an important principle by simply doing what Lancaaster schools did. What would prevent this principal from having revivals in the school auditorium for kids as long as it is 45 min after the school day? Apparently, nothing. And I am certainly open to any ideas. Thanks again!

05-12-2002, 01:21 PM	#6
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	GaryP, Boy can I empathize. I have been a non-supernaturalist for more than 50 years. During my professional career, I tread very carefully and gingerly whenever the issue of religion and religious beliefs surfaced. It has only been since retirement in 1980, and no family responsibilities beyond myself, that I have taken a more outspoken public stance on these issues. Evidently you have encountered much of the same type of intolerant Christian responses and activities that I did when attempting to present accurate historical enlightment to the central Florida newspaper reading public. (I was even advised that a local group of fundamentalist movers and shakers met specifically to determine how best to silence me and one other outspoken church-state separation supporter. Fortunately I had been publicly tacit about my background and career, and had concentrated only on the issue at hand...in that case, creation science(?) being introduced into the public school science classrooms based on a so-called "Fairness Doctrine." I was further informed that when a report was presented to this covertly zealous group that enumerated my personal history in greater detail, they elected not to push forward with any plan of public character assassination. However, that did not prevent some of their less astute fellow-travelers from making threatening phone calls and writing personal attacks that surprisingly found their way into print.) So I guess I'm saying that each of us must weigh many personal factors before determining that we are ready to chance the consequences of swimming up-stream against the increasingly strong current of national religious fervor. We already know that we can not turn to our elected representatives to support our cause. We know that the majority of our neighbors are either on the other side of the "wall" attempting to break it down or loathe to get involved. We know that our words and deeds could bring undesired and unfair negative consequences down on our loved ones. We seldom have the financial means or organized support to do much more than mumble and grumble individual dissatisfaction with the intolerance and injustices we see, hear and read every day being perpetrated by those with beatific smiles and denominational battle axes hidden behind their backs. So we come here and attempt to at least air our grievances with like minded citizens hoping to find viable, and inexpensive, ways to stem the tide of misinformation, disinformation, clever propaganda and outright lies. The tactic that I have found that works best for me, in my circumstances, is a constant effort to educate the public with the most accurate history and evidence available that challenges, and puts at question, the claims of the religious right biblical inerrantists. Transforming the national psyche from one dependent on the supernatural for its survival and well being, and into one capable of independent critical thought that is accurately capable of determining what is right and wrong, is the goal I most cherish. Will my goal ever come to pass? Probably not until such time that humanity is capable of accurately understanding the scientific foundation behind the development of each human mind from the genetically passed blank slate to the environmentally and biologically written on one we carry into adulthood.

05-12-2002, 03:18 PM	#7
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	Thanks to both of you again. There is a group in Columbus (Humanist Community of Cetral Ohio). I actually belong but have never attended a meeting. I have always been fearful that if I did go I could not help but get more publically involved and therefore bring wrath upon my family again. I think one must also be content with small success stories. The librarian at this same school has agreed to put Ed Buckner's book, Quotations supporting Separation of Church and State in the library. He even asked for another copy to put in the other JR. Hi building. And with AU's help, the schools were forced to change their policy language concerning how to teach evolution and not the creation story. The school also no longer sings hymns at graduation. This idea of teachers praying with kids on campus is just so wrong, it is hard to understand how anyone could see it differently. Thanks. It is helpful to have someone to listen and to offer sage advice.

09-18-2002, 02:45 PM	#8
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	Today was another SYATP day. I sent a message to a local reporter showing him this from Jay Sekulow's group [http://www.aclj.org/askjay/011009_school_prayer.asp]aclj.org[/url] Excerpt; (responding to a parent who is also a sub. teacher) Jay Answers: As a parent, you should have no problem. Let the school administration know that parents are going to be on campus for a quiet prayer meeting. Because you are a substitute teacher, you can participate on a day when you are not teaching. And this; freedomforum.org Excerpt; Maggie Garrett, an attorney in Montgomery for the American Civil Liberties Union of Alabama, said Pryor's advisory is correct, but the ACLU would be more specific and say that, "public school officials and teachers may not participate in, encourage, initiate or lead the event." Anyway, he did look into it and this; Lancaster Eagle-Gazette was in the paper today. I had the opportunity to go to 2 jr. his and the HS this morning. I saw a few kids at one jr.hi, none at the other and about 50 at the HS. I believe they were all students.

09-18-2002, 04:21 PM	#9
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	Several notes: (1) I have no objection to SYATP -- as long as it is held well outside of normal school hours. The fact that a person is a teacher is not sufficient justification for silencing the teacher in saying or expressing his or her religious beliefs outside of the classroom, even to their students. (2) Buffman has presented a worthwhile idea -- to use these freedoms to hold a different type of rally at the school, to gather and meet with students for a different sort of meeting. (3) Where safety is an issue, the meeting can focus on something that more distantly touches on the main issues -- that touches on more neutral ground. The option that I would offer is an after-hours logic class. Such a class would start, perhaps, by learning the informal fallacies, using an exerpt from a standard college-level introductory textbook. In these sessions, students are invited to bring in examples of fallacious reasoning and to discuss the fallacies they find -- in advertisements, in political speeches, in letters to the editor, in newspaper articles. The club could then proceed to discuss scientific reasoning (the scientific method) and an examination of pseudoscience. It could be called a "clear thinker's club" or something similar. If you have a college or university nearby, talk to the local philosophy department -- you may be able to find somebody willing to provide some formal guidance. (If anybody in the area of Boulder County, Colorado with contacts in any of the county schools would like to set something like this up, drop me a line.)

09-18-2002, 05:44 PM	#10
galiel Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Eastern Massachusetts Posts: 1,677	I am struck yet again by the fact that those who argue most vehemently that we are not "oppressed" and do not need to organize to protect our rights, never post on these topics, which are legion on this board. Not surprising, given that each of these topics negates their ostrichlike claim. I would not presume to tell you what to do, but I urge you to at least consider the possibility of taking a principled stand and accepting the consequences. I cannot believe that you can be happy accepting the illegal and immoral restrictions that your community imposes on you, not by fiat but creating an environment of fear where you can't even speak up without worrying about your job. My experience is that standing up and speaking truth to power is a tremendously liberating act, and that it helps others tkae their first steps as well. However, each of us has to do what they feel is right. The fact that so many of us feel unsupported and unempowered by the myriad of organizations that proport to represent us, is testimony to the fact that we need something more than we currently have. Good luck. Given your circumstances, I hope you can find a way to support emerging efforts to bring these issues into the limelight and encourage public debate. [ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: galiel ]</p>

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.