Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Wyz_sub10 · 08-11-2003, 09:23 AM

The problem with references to Satan is that they are often wildly inconsistent.

The Book of Job is the best known story involving Satan. Note god's question at the book's beginning:

Quote:

Job 1:7: The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, " From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."

If Satan was indeed a fallen angel cast from heaven, why did god wonder as to where he came from? This also raises an issue with regard to god's omniscience, of course.

Crosswalk, a Christian bible study site, lists 47 references to Satan in the New American Standard Bible. Curiously, not one of these references refers to Satan as an angel, past or present. Nor do any of the references they list mention him as cast out from heaven.

The Revelation 12 passage quoted from Alan N does indeed speak to Satan being cast from heaven, but what is the timeline of this passage? Does this refer to before the fall? Does this happen prior to or subsequent to the events of Job?

This seems to be describing future events, not past.

Biblestudygames.com lists the alleged various names for Satan in the bible:

Abaddon - Revelation 9:11
Apollyon - Revelation 9:11
Beelzebub - Matthew 12:24 Mark 3:22 Luke 11:15
Belial - II Corinthians 6:15
the Devil - Matthew 4:1
king of Tyrus - Ezekiel 28:12
Lucifer - Isaiah 14:12
Satan - Job 1:6

Note that all of the above employ proper names. There isn't much rationale given for this. Religious Tolerance makes the observation that the bible describes Satan in three key places, but even in these places different names are used and the target of the descriptions are disputable.

The three descriptive passages are 2 Kings 1:2-4, Isaiah 14:12-24 and Ezekiel 28:13-17 .

On Kings:

Quote:

The ancient Israelites followed Baal's name with "zebul" which means "dung;" this produced the insulting term "Baal-zebul" which was later corrupted to "Baal-zebub." "Baal-zebub" was simply a religiously intolerant, insulting term for "Baal," the main deity of a neighboring tribe. The name had no connection to Satan.

On Isaiah:

Quote:

is interpreted by some as referring to Satan by the name "helel" in Hebrew. This is often translated as "Lucifer" or "Morning Star." The passage describes how he had fallen from heaven, was thrown to earth, expressed a desire to sit "on the mountains where the Gods assemble", wished to be like God, and had attacked many cities, leaving them in ruins. At first glance, this looks like a description of some of the activities of Satan. However, verse 4 clearly states that the passage refers to the King of Babylon, not to Satan.

On Ezekiel:

Quote:

It describes an individual as full of wisdom and flawless in beauty, dwelling in an Eden. But "iniquity came to light" in him, and "lawlessness filled his heart." God flung him to the ground. Again, this sounds a bit like Satan. But verse 11 links the passage to the King of Tyre.

Note that none call him Satan, and none describe his origin or relationship to god.

Several encyclopaedias also make this observation:

Quote:

The transformation of Satan from subordinate official to independent adversary and rebellious angel occurred during the Jewish apocalyptic movement, which came under the influence of the dualistic cosmologies of the ancient Middle East. The New Testament, grown from the same soil, speaks of Satan as the author of all evil (Luke 10:19), the personal tempter of Jesus (Matt. 4), and the rebel cast to earth together with his angels (Rev. 12:7�9). But these and many other passages in the Bible said to allude to Satan were shaped into coherent theological narratives only over time, often in response to Christian heresies.

My overall point is that there is a very defined view and understanding of Satan in many Christian churches, yet much of this understanding comes from assumptions made from scriptures and assumed connections where none are explicitly stated.

There is never a connection made between the serpent from Genesis and Satan. The connection is made outside of scripture.

What is interesting, however, is that some of the concepts of Satan can be found in Zoroastrianism, a widely followed and influential religion in the middle east during the time of David.

Here's a basic teaching of late Zoroastrianism:

Quote:

In the beginning there were two equal Gods, under one supreme Deity, eternally at war with each other (let us call them God and Devil). God, who was wholly good, had an attendant company of Angels, the Devil, wholly evil, a horde of Demons. God created the Earth as a battleground for the war, and man to help him in his fight. Man like God was wholly good, and suffered neither disease nor death. The Devil corrupted man, brought disease and death upon him, taught him the ways of evil.

How similar is that to the Christian concept of Satan, save one important point - equality.

There is no shortage of available resources that argue for and against the biblical references demonstrating the reality and nature of Satan.

Again, I simply stress that when one reviews the current understanding of Satan in many of today�s Christian churches, one finds attributes, powers and even a history ascribed to him that is not reflected in the bible.

The idea of Satan has developed and changed as have many concepts in Christianity of the past 2000 years.

spacedOut · 08-11-2003, 09:35 AM

Foul!!!

1) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment - 2 Peter 2:4

2) And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. - Rev 12:7-9

Ok, which is it? Are Satan and his followers in the gloomy dungeons awaiting judgement, or are they here on earth?

Also, was the heavenly war a physical war or a spiritual war? I'm having a hard time contemplating all that fighting and hurling in a spiritual context. Assuming it was physical, where was Satan hurled from?? Is the asteroid belt evidence of the heavenly war?

And just where are the "gloomy dungeons" of hell? Somewhere on earth, or maybe the planet Mercury? It's hot there, but I doubt it's gloomy being that close to the sun and all...

JaeIsGod · 08-11-2003, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Could you also give the verses that say that 1/3 of the angels went with Satan? Just curious , since in all those years of forced biblestudy I never ran into it

Hedshaker · 08-11-2003, 01:49 PM

Well, I'm obvously no biblical scholar but the fallen angel story is the one I was told as a child. I swallowed it huck line and sinker in the same way I swallowed the God concept.

I find it strange now though that adults should indoctrinate young minds with such nonsense.

Peace

bya

Naked Ape · 08-11-2003, 02:15 PM

I believe that it was the renowned schollar Tom Waits who first exposed the truth: "There is no Devil, I'ts just God when he drinks!".

Cheers,

Naked Ape

Hedshaker · 08-11-2003, 03:17 PM

Which also explains why he needed a day off

BrotherMan · 08-11-2003, 03:45 PM

Not a criticism or rebuttal, just some info:

Quote:

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."-- Verbal Kint

Update your quote repetoire. Baudelaire said it first.

Magus55 · 08-11-2003, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JaeIsGod
Could you also give the verses that say that 1/3 of the angels went with Satan? Just curious , since in all those years of forced biblestudy I never ran into it

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

This is talking about Satan, the dragon who brought down a third of the "stars" of heaven ( angels).

B. H. Manners · 08-11-2003, 07:16 PM

Somebody already asked about Satan and free will but I'd like to know who was the temptor of Satan along with that.

Jack the Bodiless · 08-12-2003, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

This is talking about Satan, the dragon who brought down a third of the "stars" of heaven ( angels).

No, it's talking about stars. That's why it says "stars".

You're forgetting Hebrew cosmology again. A dome over the flat Earth, to which the stars are attached. At various stages in the events of Revelation, stars get knocked off and fall down.

How could a dragon thrashing about on Earth knock angels out of Heaven?

So it seems that this rebellion of "one-third of the angels" isn't in the Bible at all.

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08-11-2003, 09:35 AM	#22
spacedOut Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Heart of Dixie Posts: 104	Foul!!! 1) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment - 2 Peter 2:4 2) And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. - Rev 12:7-9 Ok, which is it? Are Satan and his followers in the gloomy dungeons awaiting judgement, or are they here on earth? Also, was the heavenly war a physical war or a spiritual war? I'm having a hard time contemplating all that fighting and hurling in a spiritual context. Assuming it was physical, where was Satan hurled from?? Is the asteroid belt evidence of the heavenly war? And just where are the "gloomy dungeons" of hell? Somewhere on earth, or maybe the planet Mercury? It's hot there, but I doubt it's gloomy being that close to the sun and all...

08-11-2003, 01:49 PM	#24
Hedshaker Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: https://soundcloud.com/dark-blue-man Posts: 3,526	Well, I'm obvously no biblical scholar but the fallen angel story is the one I was told as a child. I swallowed it huck line and sinker in the same way I swallowed the God concept. I find it strange now though that adults should indoctrinate young minds with such nonsense. Peace bya

08-11-2003, 02:15 PM	#25
Naked Ape Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Winnipeg Posts: 1,780	I believe that it was the renowned schollar Tom Waits who first exposed the truth: "There is no Devil, I'ts just God when he drinks!". Cheers, Naked Ape

08-11-2003, 03:17 PM	#26
Hedshaker Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: https://soundcloud.com/dark-blue-man Posts: 3,526	Which also explains why he needed a day off

08-11-2003, 07:16 PM	#29
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	Somebody already asked about Satan and free will but I'd like to know who was the temptor of Satan along with that.

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