Freethought & Rationalism Archive

KnightWhoSaysNi · 05-21-2002, 10:56 AM

We all know about the nontheists and freethinkers, alive or deceased, that we admire such as Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russel, Charles Darwin, Ingersoll, Gould, and others. What about those on the other side of the metaphysical fence? Here are a few that intrigue me:

Tom Harpur: a Canadian religion journalist, Oxford trained theologian, and author of several books. I was impressed by his book, "Would you Believe: Finding a God without Losing your Mind" where he rejects fundamentalism and offers discusses his liberal Christian views.

Martin Gardner: a prominent skeptic, though a theist. But his theism is based on William James' argument "the will to believe" which I find a respectable defense.

Kurt Wise: a creationist and evangelical Christian, though very honest and respectable. Creationists must have major fits when he makes statements like this -- [referring to creationism] "This gets me in a lot of trouble with a lot of creationists, ... the material that's out there is - uh, I'll hold back and be nice - garbage. It's really atrocious"

Mahatma Ghandi: being a Hindu, this probably doesn't make him a theist (more likely a pantheism). By far one of the most amazing historical figures of the last century. Far, far ahead of his time, for the most part. His approaches on non-violent resistance and civil disobedience proved that they're far more effective in making political change than the destructiveness of civil war or terrorism.

Though I don't agree with their worldviews, I nevertheless have a lot of admiration for them. These are just a few anyway. Anyone else with theists they're fond of?

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: Nightshade ]</p>

Mageth · 05-21-2002, 11:02 AM

Thomas Merton, the Catholic monk, poet, social critic and mystic. I've quite enjoyed some of his writings.

dimossi · 05-21-2002, 11:20 AM

John Shelby Spong

In "A Call for a New Reformation", Spong proposes these Theses to debate:

<a href="http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/jsspong/reform.html" target="_blank">http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/jsspong/reform.html</a>

Quote:

1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.

2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.

3. The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.

4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.

5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.

6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.

7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.

8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.

9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.

10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.

11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.

12. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.

Quite bold, I must say. Not sure I would label him a Christian, but whatever label he uses or anyones gives him, I admire his philosophy.

More Spong here:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1764/spong.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1764/spong.html</a>

Toto · 05-21-2002, 11:21 AM

Alan Watts, the late Episcopalian priest who introduced Zen Buddhism to most of the west. I don't know if he is properly classed as a "theist" because he made it clear that he did not believe in a personal god. His writings were clear, joyous, and humanistic. It was revealed after his death that he was an alcoholic and a womanizer (but hey - nobody's perfect.) KPFK in Los Angeles still reruns his talks on late night radio.

I don't know if "theist" is the right term for Martin Gardner either - he is usually called a "fideist".

Gurdur · 05-21-2002, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
...

I don't know if "theist" is the right term for Martin Gardner either - he is usually called a "fideist".

Precisely.
And there are important and real differences between the two.

sidewinder · 05-21-2002, 11:37 AM

1. Raymond Brown, a Catholic scholar.
2. Richard Swinburne, a Christian philosopher.

Secular Elation · 05-21-2002, 11:46 AM

Don't forget Martin Luther King, Jr.

IvanK · 05-21-2002, 11:51 AM

Erasmus wasn't too bad.
The author of the book of Ecclesiastes.
Francis of Assisi did a deal of good thinking about life and death and such. His answer to the fellow who asked him what he would do if he had an hour to live is a classic. Franciscan priests in general as well. Jusding from those I've met, and taking one with another, I'd have to say it'd be hard to find a more scholarly and compassionate group of men.
Thomas Aquinas had a fine mind on him as well.
Aristotle.
Confucius.
The Egyptian authors of the post-First Kingdom texts on ethics, the earliest such musings left to history.

I'd have to dissent from MLK jr though. Excellent speaker who accomplished a great deal in the civil rights arena, it's true; but it's hard for me to admire a plagiarist and philanderer.

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: IvanK ]</p>

Secular Elation · 05-21-2002, 11:59 AM

Excellent speaker who accomplished a great deal in the civil rights arena, it's true

This is enough to qualify him, then.

About your claims of plagiarism...perhaps, such as his using of sacred quotes in his "I Have a Dream" speech--but does it really affect his reputation as a speaker and his contributions to civil rights?

Toto · 05-21-2002, 12:03 PM

King was accused of plagiarizing in his PhD thesis. But - again - nobody's perfect. If you only respected or admired people who were sexually pure and never broke any rules, you would be cutting yourself off from most of humanity.

05-21-2002, 10:56 AM	#1
KnightWhoSaysNi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 2,767	Theists I admire We all know about the nontheists and freethinkers, alive or deceased, that we admire such as Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russel, Charles Darwin, Ingersoll, Gould, and others. What about those on the other side of the metaphysical fence? Here are a few that intrigue me: Tom Harpur: a Canadian religion journalist, Oxford trained theologian, and author of several books. I was impressed by his book, "Would you Believe: Finding a God without Losing your Mind" where he rejects fundamentalism and offers discusses his liberal Christian views. Martin Gardner: a prominent skeptic, though a theist. But his theism is based on William James' argument "the will to believe" which I find a respectable defense. Kurt Wise: a creationist and evangelical Christian, though very honest and respectable. Creationists must have major fits when he makes statements like this -- [referring to creationism] "This gets me in a lot of trouble with a lot of creationists, ... the material that's out there is - uh, I'll hold back and be nice - garbage. It's really atrocious" Mahatma Ghandi: being a Hindu, this probably doesn't make him a theist (more likely a pantheism). By far one of the most amazing historical figures of the last century. Far, far ahead of his time, for the most part. His approaches on non-violent resistance and civil disobedience proved that they're far more effective in making political change than the destructiveness of civil war or terrorism. Though I don't agree with their worldviews, I nevertheless have a lot of admiration for them. These are just a few anyway. Anyone else with theists they're fond of? [ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: Nightshade ]</p>

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05-21-2002, 11:02 AM	#2
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Thomas Merton, the Catholic monk, poet, social critic and mystic. I've quite enjoyed some of his writings.

05-21-2002, 11:21 AM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Alan Watts, the late Episcopalian priest who introduced Zen Buddhism to most of the west. I don't know if he is properly classed as a "theist" because he made it clear that he did not believe in a personal god. His writings were clear, joyous, and humanistic. It was revealed after his death that he was an alcoholic and a womanizer (but hey - nobody's perfect.) KPFK in Los Angeles still reruns his talks on late night radio. I don't know if "theist" is the right term for Martin Gardner either - he is usually called a "fideist".

05-21-2002, 11:37 AM	#6
sidewinder Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omnipresent Posts: 234	1. Raymond Brown, a Catholic scholar. 2. Richard Swinburne, a Christian philosopher.

05-21-2002, 11:46 AM	#7
Secular Elation Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: California Posts: 6,196	Don't forget Martin Luther King, Jr.

05-21-2002, 11:51 AM	#8
IvanK Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 2,016	Erasmus wasn't too bad. The author of the book of Ecclesiastes. Francis of Assisi did a deal of good thinking about life and death and such. His answer to the fellow who asked him what he would do if he had an hour to live is a classic. Franciscan priests in general as well. Jusding from those I've met, and taking one with another, I'd have to say it'd be hard to find a more scholarly and compassionate group of men. Thomas Aquinas had a fine mind on him as well. Aristotle. Confucius. The Egyptian authors of the post-First Kingdom texts on ethics, the earliest such musings left to history. I'd have to dissent from MLK jr though. Excellent speaker who accomplished a great deal in the civil rights arena, it's true; but it's hard for me to admire a plagiarist and philanderer. [ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: IvanK ]</p>

05-21-2002, 11:59 AM	#9
Secular Elation Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: California Posts: 6,196	Excellent speaker who accomplished a great deal in the civil rights arena, it's true This is enough to qualify him, then. About your claims of plagiarism...perhaps, such as his using of sacred quotes in his "I Have a Dream" speech--but does it really affect his reputation as a speaker and his contributions to civil rights?

05-21-2002, 12:03 PM	#10
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	King was accused of plagiarizing in his PhD thesis. But - again - nobody's perfect. If you only respected or admired people who were sexually pure and never broke any rules, you would be cutting yourself off from most of humanity.

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