Carol Massey

hi leyline,

nice to see you're back!

On the subject of Susan Blackmore, yesterday I reviewed the articles that she has online: The Grand Illusion, and (can't recall the title of the other one that I read), but she also says that she, like David Chalmers, does not address, nor propose any explanations regarding the still difficult question of 'consciousness'. That, it seems, the jury is still out on. On the other hand, Tor Nortrandders, author of The User Illusion, does a very capable job of organizing scientific information that would indicate that we have a new piece of the 'consciousness' puzzle, and that consciousness is 'characteristically' s..l..o...w! Not much maybe, but it's a start.

A 'myth' of no myth...yes, precisely what I was suggesting. We can't remove ourselves from the world of effect; therefore, however we attempt to describe universal principles will be an approximation based on our knowledge.

The ye ole: "The map is not the territory".

emotional,
I also participate in the Carl Jung forum discussion, where we have an interesting topic developing that fits nicely with our discussion here, regarding the way we perceive and relate to LIFE. The title of that one is Introversion/Extroversion. I really enjoy having the input of various disciplines, for I haven't found one yet that I couldn't learn from.

leyline

hi carol

thanks for the welcome and i hope that your party went well.

i spent saturday nite on one of my favourite ancient monuments. As we led there under the stars and the light of the nearly full moon spread across the landscape i couldn't help wonder that the pre writing culture that built it had not only a different understanding of the world, but different skills and sensitivities too. Things that we have largely lost. Who knows what earth energies they could relate to? How can we possibly know?

eg For me the culture of writing has a profound effect upon each of us. To see our thoughts and feelings made physically present when we ourselves are absent. Like now ....... writing on the internet and blind and deaf to each other physically except in words. We are like ghosts in the machine.

To be able to do this i feel is responsible for leading us away from other relationships with the world by sheer habit. It is a different mind set that it is difficult to imagine or remember what it was like before we could do it. Like the hearts and minds of children.

emotional

Sirs,

I understand the pagan mythos. It's not strange to me. I had my flirt with Wicca in the past. The Earth Mother, the Goddess of Nature - those appealed to me in the past. I used to go to the green areas for interconnectedness. The troubles were twofold: first, there were not enough green areas, and second, I was overcome by my fear of death.

I'm a man of the city. I was born in the city, and in cities have I always lived. The only few green areas in my vicinity were parks. For a real dose of green, I have to take the car and drive into the country. Meaning that the connection with the Nature Goddess is not automatically accessible to me. I wanted to worship Nature, but there was no availability.

Also the fear of nature's ending loomed upon me: that one day Mother Nature would claim me, as she claims all flesh. What would then be of my self? Naturalism, be it atheistic or paganistic in outlook, told me that my self would be extinguished. And there is nothing I fear more than my self being extinguished. So I could not worship her who would reduce my self to nothingness.

O death, where is thy sting? Where, grave, thy victory? I wished for transcendence, for triumph over death, and I found this triumph in faith. Faith in a God who would keep me alive after I died. Now when I look at the stars, they are the glory of God. He is holy, holy, holy above all His creation. He loves His creations and will not let their selves go extinct.

Nature is my fear of death, God is my hope for life after death. I cannot believe nature is all there is, or that the body is the mind, for that would entail extinction of self one day. And even if I were still in a disposition to worship Nature, I still could not worship her in the city, where I am most of the time.

I believe there is a world of matter and a world of spirit, and that they are distinct; I believe there is a creation and a Creator, and that they are distinct; I believe there is a body and a mind, and that they are distinct; and there I stand. Not for me pantheism or the materialist-monist theories of bodymind. If I cannot see the spiritual realms now, it is because I am covered by a veil of materiality and of my sins; but I believe they exist, and the Loving Father exists, and upon this I rest.

Opera Nut

Hi Carol & Leyline!

Let's say there are two cosmic experiences here and one primal attraction. I came up with primal attraction as a phrase.

Cosmic experience is a particular experience that feels cosmic and heavy and profound, or synchronistic/serendipitous.

Primal attraction is when you are inexplicably attracted to a certain type of thing or subject (could be a particular person even, though not necessarily a soulmate) and you don't know why, since there is no particular reason. But there is something deeper there. A very deep connection. I think it might be a past lives or karmic thing and that's the only explanation I can come up with. I had one primal attraction to a brilliant lawyer. He was a kind and sensitive man I knew in graduate school. There was a sudden and powerful thing going on -- he came into the room and I lit up like a neon sign. We had an affair but it didn't work out. He and I both married other people.

Primal attraction: Horses. I have no experience with them. The grandparents had a country house and farm with cattle but no horses at all. In Texas we didn't even have race tracks due to the Baptists and their hatred of betting and alcohol. I had never seen a live horse race.

First horse experience: Ruffian. The greatest filly of all time. She raced against Foolish Pleasure July 6, 1973 and had to be put down because of breaking a leg during the race. I watched this on TV and when she had to be put down I cried for a solid week. Or maybe it was a week and a half. To me it was a Shakespearean tragedy. I was in the summer between my freshman year and soph year of college.
Do a Google on "Ruffian" for the story.

Horses in general: I love to watch the Triple Crown on TV and get emotionally involved in how beautiful and mighty they are. I get just as emotional about horses as I do about loving dogs -- but I have never owned a horse or been around them. I've never ridden one either. Maybe it's because of the purity of their motives -- they are born and bred to run and it's what they love to do. Not for sneaker commercial contracts or money or anything else. Kinda like the Platonic ideal.

I have since been to racetracks in Louisiana where they run thoroughbreds and people bet. It's just not the same as watching the Triple Crown and I can't explain (....cue up The Who song.......) why.

I cried when I read Dr. Rick's story of losing his beloved Forrest. I always cry when I read a story about dogs. I am sitting here crying right now wishing I had a new puppy, just thinking about it, dammit!! Argghhh!!

First major life experience that looked cosmic b/c of synchronicity or serendipity:

It's 1965. I was 10. Was taking piano lessons starting at age five. Loved it, still love it. Dad was a probate lawyer. Woman client has male violinist friend. Male friend drops dead in her living room of heart attack. Male friend is gay and has no heirs. He's a graduate of Curtis or Peabody or New England Conservatory or someplace like that.

Woman client is Executrix of his estate, and Dad gets the fiddle for $500 in legal fees. I am asked "Would you like to learn to play the violin??"
"Sure, why not??"

Coincidentally, my piano teacher is also an excellent fiddler and I take fiddle lessons from him too from that time, fifth grade, until I graduate from high school at 17. Continue fiddling in college and am totally obsessed with mastering the fiddle until I mastered it. Got tired of symphonic repertoire and put it down at age 25.


Second cosmic life experience: Having my daughter in 1985. Had a spinal anesthetic, was awake during a C-section. The whole thing was happy and wonderful, as we were both healthy after a very dangerous pregnancy due to my small size.
Unfortunately her father was very negative about children and didn't want responsibility. We had been married nearly two years when she came. I know that many people have cosmic experiences having children, so this one is more explainable.

Third cosmic experience: It's 1990. My sister has just died of cancer. My parents and my daughter and I are in Ashtabula, Ohio. We're going to fly from CLeveland to Disney World after this.

We're in ashtabula at my dad's sister's house. Dad hasn't seen his sister in fifty years b/c he is punishing her for having a child by an unlisted father during the Depression. Dad only breaks this silence in 1986 on a previous plane trip to Cleveland.

Dad's brother takes us to their sister's house and they three sit on a sofa and talk. I have just gotten a video camera and I sit in the floor and film them reminiscing about their mother's death in 1918 during the worldwide flu epidemic. The sister being the oldest is 9 or 10 at the time.

Dad is about 70, his little brother is 65 and the sister, who I have never met until 1987, is about 82. I look amazingly like her and am extremely creeped out about it, and mad that my dad deprived me of the friendship of a very nice lady.

When these three old people sit in one place and talk, I think: I am AT HOME. These three old people are MY HOME. This is where I belong. This is my real family. Is it just Midwestern solidness or is it genetic? Beats me.

I have seen far more of my mother's family which is southern (Tx, La & Miss) and have no such connection to them. I know we share DNA but I have no desire to associate with them.

Why horses, dogs, and Ashtabula and the relatives?

Any comments gang?

Carol Massey

Hi Opera Nut,

I wonder that all these events which you describe have a commonality of deep emotion that triggers your natural tendency to be a 'highly emotional person'? It seems to me that for whatever reason, we experience the 'infinite', or our most expansive self, in ways that are the most natural to us.

This is the reason that I feel "all roads lead to Rome", and there are as many ways of contacting the Source, Self, the richness of the unconscious mind, God, or whatever one chooses to call it, as there are living beings.

Carol Massey

Reminds me of my Lutheran Catechism class when I was a young person.....

but I think it was called it the Nicene creed, or some such!

I'm not knocking it emotional, if it gives you a sense of peace and serenity. Personally, it just gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Opera Nut

Correction re: Ruffian.

Not just the greatest filly of all time but THE GREATEST RACEHORSE OF ALL TIME. Including the guys. Yes, the greatest racehorse of all time, bar none.

In TEN RACES, NEVER HEADED, NEVER BEATEN, always winning by record lengths.

Daughter of two spirited racehorses who hurt themselves racing because of their incredible will to run, and had to retire.

Daughter of the second fastest son of Bold Ruler, Reviewer, whose fastest son was Secretariat.

Maternal granddaughter of Native Dancer.

That which made her great killed her -- her will to run. (this is literally true--I won't go into the gory details--Google it).

I am no expert on horse genetics but I can recognize the legendary names when I see them.

Carol Massey

Opera Nut,

I don't keep close track of race horses, but I do think it's horrible that they are destroyed when their usefulness is spent, or that breeders find them 'unworthy' to compete. Now I don't know this firsthand, so I may be misinformed, but that it would be true is a pitiful use of scientific breeding programs....an example of how technology outpaces our ability to discern it's positive and humane use of it....degenerating into it's opposite, the diabolical.

emotional

All it means is both Christians and I have an obsession with the death question. I don't like Christianity; what with its doctrine of eternal hell of sadistic torture, I regard it as a satanic religion. But I do like the motif of "triumph over death".



Ooh yes, it certainly does

Not intentional. Sorry about that.

Opera Nut

Carol, when I posted "That which made her great killed her, literally" and said "I won't post the gory details, Google it"
I MEANT IT. You should have gone to that page.

Well, you misinterpreted it b/c you didn't have all the facts. I am not gonna post the gory details here for casual browsers. They are way too gross.

Carol, go to this page and read the actual account of the great race against Foolish Pleasure, and her injuries:

http://members.aol.com/Mort200/july61975.html


Then, and ONLY then, come back and tell me, if you think that the greatest thoroughbred horse of all time was destroyed unnecessarily.