Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SecularFuture · 05-15-2003, 07:27 AM

themistocles

Quote:

� I'm secure in my atheism and could give a flying flip about what superstitions others may have or their opinions of my lack thereof, so long as said superstitious are not planning to insert nails into my eyes or sacrifice goats on my lawn.�

So you don�t care about your future, or the future of your children? There are too many religionists and too little rationalists in this world. Religion isn�t going to unify us, find cures for diseases, or help us critically think out our other problems. You may be ignoring religion, but religion is sure not ignoring you!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GaryP
You are a secular hero!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Harumi

Quote:

� That is quite impossible right now as I am only seventeen, without a driver's license.�

Living doesn�t require a car.

Quote:

� Can't sneak out: my house has an alarm.

Become an artist.

Quote:

� The school I go to is the International Academy (considered the best highschool in the US), where critical thinking is a required class, and because of the international students, completely, utterly, secular. It's a happy place where freethinkers are the norm and fundies don't exist.�

And I WONDER why its one of the best high schools in the US!
HAHAHAHAH!!! Because it�s freaking SECULAR!!! THAT�S WHY!!!

And I'm freaking insane!!!

Quote:

� Precisely, which is why I have serious problems with atheists who feel that getting rid of religion will somehow solve all world problems.�

Without religion, there would be more room for freethinking.
End of story.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

theIPU

Quote:

� I go to a catholic school (don't ask) and when people found out I was an atheist (a.k.a. devil worshipper ) they all came up to me asking why I don't believe in God.�

Oh wow! An atheist in a catholic school? IEW! You poor person. I would love to go to a Catholic School for a year. Hehehe - I would try to convert everybody, starting with the teachers.

Quote:

� I said yes, that is true. They seemed to feel quite justified that because I couldn't disprove God they were right. I then asked them if they could disprove leprechauns, and they said, "well, leprechauns aren't the same as God!!!"�

You have to learn how to respond to these people.

Read everything written by Richard Dawkins and James Randi. They�re the kings of fundie ass kicking!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LadyShea

Quote:

� I don't think we need to evangelize our non-belief...thats too like a religion for me. Do what you can for your fellow humans and let others come ask you why you are so cool �

And then we all die at the hands of religious mind clogging.

Quote:

�I know atheists who will take a polite "bless you" when they sneeze and turn it into an opportunity to tell the blesser all about their atheism and how they are offended by being blessed.�

Yeah! That�s kind of like me. I�m a little different though. When ever someone tells me �bless you� I usually turn around and beat the sh$% out of them!

Quote:

� I say "thank you" and move on with my day...that's what I mean about not evangelizing.�

Honestly � I�m not really an �atheistic evangelist�. In my spare time I like to research debating techniques, religion, philosophy, etc. And when I have spare-spare time, I like writing articles about what I�ve learned about religion (flaws and dangers of), blah � blah � blah.
http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/search_for_god.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

paris

Quote:

�Being a teacher, I try to speak of Darwin as many times as I can. Just to make it clear that (public) school will not accept to shut up under the pressure of fundies.�

WOOOO � HOOOOO!! Could you please make copies of yourself?? PLEASE?!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jacobus Altus
Your response inspired me, and made me rethink my position on destroying religion. Here is a thread I did about replacing religion with Transhumanism.
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=53646

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Defiant Heretic

Quote:

� I think the trick is fighting people who try and impose religion where it has no place, like in science classrooms, but letting people believe whatever they want to as long as they extend us the same courtesy.�

Should we let people believe in suicide and murder? Religion is killing our common sense, our science, and our medicine. If we do not find a replacement for religious ignorance soon, we are all doomed.

My complete comments are here:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=53646 in this link.

edited to fix tag by Toto the compulsive

Defiant Heretic · 05-15-2003, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SecularFuture:
Religion is killing our common sense, our science, and our medicine.

And when it tries to do so, I fight it. (Read my post on page 3)

However, I have nothing against the family down the block wanting to go to church on Sunday. That's their right, just as it's my right to stay home.

Shake · 05-19-2003, 06:54 AM

Jacobus and Toto, I just finished reading through your conversation late in this thread. I can see you're not too far apart in your views, but there are differing points and I can see the merits of each.

I too, would tend to lean towards the view that there is increasing marginalization of religion in general. This is happening right along with the apparent booming of the business of religion, though. While many involved in the big churches would alway favor expansion, some folks get turned off by all the glitz and hype. There are still those who witnessed the problems of PTL and have become suspicious of these mega-churches. I find that whenever I pause at a TV broadcast from some huge church, where the "service" is a big production, I think of all the money they're spending on the production that could have gone to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, etc. I suppose they feel it's worth the trade-off, to potentially get more folks involved and sending them money.

Anyway, I'm starting to drift away from what I was going to say. Just yesterday on another thread, I wrote that I don't forsee religion ever fully going away. I believe in the power of the internet to at least give people greater access to all sorts of information and points-of-view that they don't necessarily encounter in their day-to-day lives. I'd like to see more people turn away from "organized" religion, as I feel that religion is much too personal to be formalized. But we are creatures of tradition and habit, and these things die slowly.

As religions have evolved along with societal changes, their roles have changed from being explanations of natural phenomena, to fulfilling spiritual needs of their members. As man has been able to exercise greater control over his environment and his own well-being, his more pressing needs have shifted from the tangible (food, water, shelter) to the spiritual/intellectual.

Recent studies have shown the erosion of (at least) religious practice in Europe, and there are signs of this beginning in the US (our society being much younger than Europe). Perhaps church leaders here are aware of this and are frightened of what will happen. To me, this seems to be the next step in the evolution of a society. Religious belief reaches an extreme peak, then starts, slowly at first, to decline. Wars and disease seem to have a way of helping this erosion. I suspect we'll see more countries go through this cycle and eventually the US will be where Europe is now, and other countries will be like the US is now.

What about Islam? Some may ask. True, it appears to be growing quickly now, but it's still newer than Xianity, and much newer than Judaism (which according to some reports is in great decline worldwide), so perhaps it hasn't reached its peak yet. "This too, shall pass," I believe is an appropriate quote.

I agree that the idea of "atheist activism" has to be fundamentally different from xian proselytizing, and that the influence of right-wing fundy groups must be kept in check. I don't think we need to be "in your face," but we can't afford to be invisible either. So, stay educated, educate others, write letters, vote, and support C-SS and secular causes. These are our best ways to be effective in helping secularism (IMHO).

Thanks for letting me ramble. I rewrote big sections of this as I went, sometimes scratching out whole paragraphs that I felt strayed too far from my original point (whatever that was).

Jacobus Altus · 05-20-2003, 03:43 PM

Shake and Toto:

Thanks for both of your thoughtful replies.

My theme that religion is marginalizing itself and is on a precipitous decline probably begs some additional explanation.

I think that the NRIS++ surveys show a true decline. I would call it �precipitous� because Christianity will probably become a minority religion in the US as early as 2040 and almost surely by 2070. And mostly at the expense of the rise in the partial populations of atheists and agnostics. I use the term �precipitous decline� relative to the 30,000+ years of priestly domination of societies. [The word �domination� even derives from the Latin Dominus, �Lord�, by the way.] I would call the massive abandonment of religion over a few decades, as opposed to millenia of religious domience, �precipitous�.

Shake wrote: �Recent studies have shown the erosion of (at least) religious practice in Europe, and there are signs of this beginning in the US (our society being much younger than Europe).�

I would mostly agree with Shake�s observation, except for Shakes� �younger� comment. I think that attainmemt of universal literacy is much more important to a society�s progress than the age (younger or older) of a society itself

Best, Jacobus Altus

Harumi · 05-21-2003, 07:01 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SecularFuture

So you don�t care about your future, or the future of your children? There are too many religionists and too little rationalists in this world. Religion isn�t going to unify us, find cures for diseases, or help us critically think out our other problems. You may be ignoring religion, but religion is sure not ignoring you!

That is a false assumption SecularFuture. I would think that a person who professes to think with reason can do better than that. And at that, which religion are you assuming. I can think of several major religions that don't go around trying to convert people and keep to themselves. Perhaps we should try to emulate them...

Living doesn�t require a car.

You wanna bet? Try living in the Detroit area without a car. You can't go anywhere. I'm serious. And my parents are certainly not going to drive me around. They have better things to do.

Without religion, there would be more room for freethinking.
End of story.

Oh really? Without religion, more people would just find other things that aren't religion to think for them. I've met a good number of atheists that are irrational. What about all the communists in Russia? I've also met atheists who've created conspiracy theories. Eradication of religion will not solve all. It will only put another substitute in its place.

There are good people who are religious too. They just happen to believe in God. As long as they live their lives and keep to themselves, what's wrong with doing the same?

SecularFuture · 05-23-2003, 10:14 PM

Quote:

"There are good people who are religious too. They just happen to believe in God."

Religion is the #1 destructive forced in our world today, and if it were gone - there would be more peace; not total peace, but more.

Seriously think about this for a moment. Do some research on hate crimes, terrorism, our past, and etc.

The Dangers of Religion

The Improbability of God by Richard Dawkins

Harumi · 05-27-2003, 07:35 AM

Right.

I'm not going to go out and start driving people to atheism since I have a feeling that this won't work.

I'll be open about my atheism. I'll talk about it (only when the topic comes up). I'll defend it. But I won't force my beliefs on other people.

That makes me feel fundyish. And that is a bad feeling.

SecularFuture · 05-27-2003, 10:38 AM

Quote:

"I'm not going to go out and start driving people to atheism since I have a feeling that this won't work.

Well... how about Secular Transhumanism? That might work.

Quote:

"I'll be open about my atheism. I'll talk about it (only when the topic comes up). I'll defend it. But I won't force my beliefs on other people.

Cool. Thats much better than repressing it, or being ashamed of it.

Helping to clear the many misconceptions about atheism and evolution (especially) are important as well. There are still people in this world who believe that atheism and evolution both derive from a devil concept. :banghead:

SecularFuture · 05-29-2003, 12:36 PM

And don't forget to help secularism!
It needs YOU

EverLastingGodStopper · 05-30-2003, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jacobus Altus

Hmmm... My 'rosy' view is predicated on several large-scale (low sampling error) surveys about a decade apart; the last was conducted c 2001. They were called ARIS and NRIS or somesuch and their summaries are published somewhere in http://www.religioustolerance.org's labyrinth. They show about a 10% decline in self-identified Christians over the decade in the US, and note that the decline follows similar ones in other Western nations, like Canada. The sampled populations also about doubled in the selection rate for 'none of the above' religious affiliations.

So, we disagree on a factual matter. I've cited my sources. Would you kindly cite yours for "undergoing explosive growth" and "American churches are flourishing" ?

Best, Jacobus Altus

Just to back up what Jacobus Altus wrote:

"According to the ARIS 2001 survey, the total "No Religion Specified" category has grown to 29,481,000, roughly 14.1% of the population."
From: http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/atheist4.htm
ARIS SURVEY: http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/aris_index.htm

I also refer to stats posted at: http://www.adherents.com

And yesterday (5-29), American Atheists had a demonstration in Philly... I think I need to make a new thread...

05-20-2003, 03:43 PM	#84
Jacobus Altus Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 20	Religion is in a long-term decline Shake and Toto: Thanks for both of your thoughtful replies. My theme that religion is marginalizing itself and is on a precipitous decline probably begs some additional explanation. I think that the NRIS++ surveys show a true decline. I would call it �precipitous� because Christianity will probably become a minority religion in the US as early as 2040 and almost surely by 2070. And mostly at the expense of the rise in the partial populations of atheists and agnostics. I use the term �precipitous decline� relative to the 30,000+ years of priestly domination of societies. [The word �domination� even derives from the Latin Dominus, �Lord�, by the way.] I would call the massive abandonment of religion over a few decades, as opposed to millenia of religious domience, �precipitous�. Shake wrote: �Recent studies have shown the erosion of (at least) religious practice in Europe, and there are signs of this beginning in the US (our society being much younger than Europe).� I would mostly agree with Shake�s observation, except for Shakes� �younger� comment. I think that attainmemt of universal literacy is much more important to a society�s progress than the age (younger or older) of a society itself Best, Jacobus Altus

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05-19-2003, 06:54 AM	#83
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	Jacobus and Toto, I just finished reading through your conversation late in this thread. I can see you're not too far apart in your views, but there are differing points and I can see the merits of each. I too, would tend to lean towards the view that there is increasing marginalization of religion in general. This is happening right along with the apparent booming of the business of religion, though. While many involved in the big churches would alway favor expansion, some folks get turned off by all the glitz and hype. There are still those who witnessed the problems of PTL and have become suspicious of these mega-churches. I find that whenever I pause at a TV broadcast from some huge church, where the "service" is a big production, I think of all the money they're spending on the production that could have gone to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, etc. I suppose they feel it's worth the trade-off, to potentially get more folks involved and sending them money. Anyway, I'm starting to drift away from what I was going to say. Just yesterday on another thread, I wrote that I don't forsee religion ever fully going away. I believe in the power of the internet to at least give people greater access to all sorts of information and points-of-view that they don't necessarily encounter in their day-to-day lives. I'd like to see more people turn away from "organized" religion, as I feel that religion is much too personal to be formalized. But we are creatures of tradition and habit, and these things die slowly. As religions have evolved along with societal changes, their roles have changed from being explanations of natural phenomena, to fulfilling spiritual needs of their members. As man has been able to exercise greater control over his environment and his own well-being, his more pressing needs have shifted from the tangible (food, water, shelter) to the spiritual/intellectual. Recent studies have shown the erosion of (at least) religious practice in Europe, and there are signs of this beginning in the US (our society being much younger than Europe). Perhaps church leaders here are aware of this and are frightened of what will happen. To me, this seems to be the next step in the evolution of a society. Religious belief reaches an extreme peak, then starts, slowly at first, to decline. Wars and disease seem to have a way of helping this erosion. I suspect we'll see more countries go through this cycle and eventually the US will be where Europe is now, and other countries will be like the US is now. What about Islam? Some may ask. True, it appears to be growing quickly now, but it's still newer than Xianity, and much newer than Judaism (which according to some reports is in great decline worldwide), so perhaps it hasn't reached its peak yet. "This too, shall pass," I believe is an appropriate quote. I agree that the idea of "atheist activism" has to be fundamentally different from xian proselytizing, and that the influence of right-wing fundy groups must be kept in check. I don't think we need to be "in your face," but we can't afford to be invisible either. So, stay educated, educate others, write letters, vote, and support C-SS and secular causes. These are our best ways to be effective in helping secularism (IMHO). Thanks for letting me ramble. I rewrote big sections of this as I went, sometimes scratching out whole paragraphs that I felt strayed too far from my original point (whatever that was).

05-21-2003, 07:01 AM	#85
Harumi Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 3,184	[QUOTE]Originally posted by SecularFuture So you don�t care about your future, or the future of your children? There are too many religionists and too little rationalists in this world. Religion isn�t going to unify us, find cures for diseases, or help us critically think out our other problems. You may be ignoring religion, but religion is sure not ignoring you! That is a false assumption SecularFuture. I would think that a person who professes to think with reason can do better than that. And at that, which religion are you assuming. I can think of several major religions that don't go around trying to convert people and keep to themselves. Perhaps we should try to emulate them... Living doesn�t require a car. You wanna bet? Try living in the Detroit area without a car. You can't go anywhere. I'm serious. And my parents are certainly not going to drive me around. They have better things to do. Without religion, there would be more room for freethinking. End of story. Oh really? Without religion, more people would just find other things that aren't religion to think for them. I've met a good number of atheists that are irrational. What about all the communists in Russia? I've also met atheists who've created conspiracy theories. Eradication of religion will not solve all. It will only put another substitute in its place. There are good people who are religious too. They just happen to believe in God. As long as they live their lives and keep to themselves, what's wrong with doing the same?

05-27-2003, 07:35 AM	#87
Harumi Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 3,184	Right. I'm not going to go out and start driving people to atheism since I have a feeling that this won't work. I'll be open about my atheism. I'll talk about it (only when the topic comes up). I'll defend it. But I won't force my beliefs on other people. That makes me feel fundyish. And that is a bad feeling.

05-29-2003, 12:36 PM	#89
SecularFuture Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,866	And don't forget to help secularism! It needs YOU

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