WJ

Hi all!

Most recently, in trying to understand the justification behind atheism, we have seen the logical inconsistency that many, atheist's seem to share in their thinking or approach towards, say, arguing the EOG. While it seems that logical positivism is indeed still alive, let's now attack the so-called 'psychology' behind the atheist's thought process as it relates to the human condition or 'real world'.

As taken from Andrew's "Challenging Atheism" site:

If the claims of many atheists are true there is no God, we are not here by design and natural forces alone can account for why we exist and why there is a place for us to exist then it is not dangerous and is in fact helpful. If it can be certain such is the case no matter the philosophic consequence it is always better to know the truth than to believe a lie even if the lie may have more positive attributes. If the reality is we are just the result of chance and we are just accidental by-products of nature which have evolved relatively recently on an infinitesimal speck of dust lost somewhere in a hostile and mindless universe and which are doomed to perish individually and collectively in a relatively short time we should know that nothing really matters. That all things such as art, poetry, justice, morals, love and beauty [and even 'mathematical'intelligence and the ability to comprehend the laws of nature] are nothing more than arbitrary conventions of no significance and that our lives are meaningless and purposeless. After all what difference does it make if we perpetuate some sort of herd mentality, which we have no lasting stake in for the sake of perpetuating the gene pool? [And what biological advantage does understanding the laws of gravity have when they were not needed to dodge falling objects?] It would be important to know that even the most heinous of injustices are insignificant and meaningless since we are as sentient humans are the by products of fortuitous laws of physics and have no ‘right’ to be alive in the first place. I find that many atheists don’t subscribe to the notions I have underscored above. It is a strange dilemma that they want people to dismiss and reject the notions of God as nothing more than hearsay and yet don’t find the intestinal fortitude to live by the philosophical ramifications of their own philosophy.

However, unless the atheists can be certain of these claims and know with at least some certainty this is so then I think it can be dangerous. An example is the tyranny of governments that have operated under the assumption that atheism is true. Examples are the former Soviet Union and China where human rights and dignity are nearly non-existent. Particularly the woman of China who have for all practical purposes no right to be born and no sovereignty over their own bodies. They are told to procreate or terminate at will.

What about theism? The same thing holds for theism if it is true. It doesn’t matter whether we like it or not or wish it wasn’t so the reality is if true we are here by design and for a purpose. Our lives are not our own to do as we please either are other peoples lives. We are here at the behest of a creator and not the result of a mindless process. Since there would be something greater than humanity no longer can humans be regarded as the ‘measure of all things’. The notion that we could have inalienable rights granted from a creator would be a reality and not merely a platitude. Our actions, system of justice, love and mercy can actually have meaning. There can be ultimate justice in the universe if those who commit evil are not punished here. Our lives may well extend beyond the physical life we experience here and have meaning beyond this short existence.

The point is that the atheist has the greater responsibility to be right because of the ramifications of atheism if true. It is not enough to set themselves up as mere critics of theism and suppose that atheism has no effects in and of itself. Personally I think most atheists though not thinking a god exists have little reason or concern to persuade others of their own disbelief. I think some even indulge in some of the practices of various beliefs out of respect for the individuals who do. However not all are content with this, there are many websites that make an active mockery of belief in God. They don’t disagree with it for the sake of their own lives but feel compelled to point out the foolishness of those who do believe and act like they are performing a public service for the benefit of the people to ‘save’ them from thinking there is a God. They even go as far as to suggest that those who belief in God are the real danger to society. Yet when pressed to give an account of how the universe and sentient people came about apart from a creator they say they don’t have to give an account. They say they are making no claims. So they set themselves up as intellectual critics while offering no alternative in return. While promoting the bleakest philosophy imaginable they feel no compulsion to offer any evidence of its truth. Many feel that merely disparaging theism is sufficient to justify themselves.

------------------end quote

Questions:

Does or can atheism offer any political benefits here in America? Is there a so-called 'pragmatic' benefit?

Walrus

[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]</p>

Vibr8gKiwi

Again WJ just posts the words of someone else. If you want to respond, the guy that wrote those words has his own website and message board. WJ on the other hand might not have anything of his own.

[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: Vibr8gKiwi ]</p>

Jayhawker Soule

What a pathetic pompous ass you are.
This sounds remarkably like a "Political Discussion".

WJ

Reasonable,

Because the topic of god is so 'comprehensive', I wasn't sure whether this one fit into philosophy or politics or...

But I'm absolutely certain the moderator's will do the 'appropriate' thing!

Bible Humper

Well, I wonder if the author of this has considered the fact that according to his philosophy, he should make no effort to prolong his own life. Exercise, medical treatment, personal safety, all these things are just keeping you theists away from your fairy land paradise at the right hand of the Great Magical Sky-Juju. This goes for your children also, you theists should hope that your child dies early before it has a chance to damn itself to hellfire, right?

It seems to me that it isn't us that lack the "intestinal fortitude" to persue our beliefs to their logical conclusions, the message here seems to be "nihilism is so bleak, therefore God exists!"

Oh my, does this guy think that we are atheists because it isn't possible to be a communist otherwise? What do you think, my comrades?

Is he aware that these regimes were rabidly anti-religion because the Great Magic Sky Juju competes with the state for the minds and hearts of the people?

It also looks like he believes that atheism has a common dogma which we can draw upon to find the "proper atheist way to run a country".

Yup. "There is no justice if nihilism is true, therefore God exists"

Hmm, I don't think so though I could be overlooking something I guess. I think we would all be happy enough if God stayed in the gaps where he belongs, if theists would stop trying to teach creationism as science, quit trying to stuff their sexual taboos down everyone's throats, and refrained from their luddite opposition to such things as cloning, there would be no harm at all from the simple fact that they believe in a deity.

I think that the state must keep the wall between church and state tall and strong, but I would feel that running the state in some kind of particularly "atheistic" fashion is just as bad.

Trebaxian Vir's advocacy of indoctrinating youth to believe in "darwinism", for example, is just as bad as indoctrinating youth to believe in The Great Magic Sky-Juju, IMO.

DarkBronzePlant

WJ,

See if you can find the flaw with this proof:

1. Only if god created us can things like "art, poetry, justice, morals, love and beauty", and even our own existence, be meaningful.

2. Atheists don't think that god created us.

3. Therefore, atheists promote a world without meaning.

WJ

"WJ on the other hand might not have anything of his own."

By all means, please teach me how to think better. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

WJ

I see several flaws:

"Therefore, atheists promote a world without meaning."

How can that be? For one, don't atheists believe in, say, love? Does (love and hate) that not provide for meaning?


<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Aerik Von

Here is how I look at it WJ...

Mold grows on Oranges...humans grow on the earth.

...yes...many of us believe in love. I am slated to be married next year!

Vibr8gKiwi

If a tree cries for attention in the forest and no one is around to care...