Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cipher Girl · 03-31-2003, 10:50 PM

Hi beastmaster
OK, here's where I disagree. I am not convinced that it is impossible for god to both transcend the universe and affect the universe at the same time. Sorry, that's just not axiomatic for me. Just because something seems contradictory or paradoxical or counterintuitive to us humans doesn't mean it cannot be true.

How could something both exist in the universe and not exist in the universe at the same time? If god does exist in the universe then there would something we could observe or measure. Some natural law would need to have a god as part of the equation. If god does not exists in the universe and has no effects, then of course its the same as no god.

I don't think any person can posit something that is totally incomprehensible, as they would not be able to posit it in the first place. I think religious people have an idea in their head when they talk about god. Unfortunately, usually this idea is not completely thought out and this results in the person changing their mind in the course of a discussion.

Hi Darkblade, great post, so, so true.:notworthy

Hi Eric_H
I agree with the above quote totally.
As you say, unless the other person is �willing� to understand, the chances are, that they will not.
It seems that both atheists and theists are not willing to understand the opposing view, because we have both become entrenched in our own views.
I sense from reading posts in this forum that it probably takes about the same amount of research, conviction and faith to hold either view.
I say faith or trust for an atheist in a loose sense because there is not absolute proof that God does not exist.

Willing to understand is not the same thing as willing to believe. I may completely understand what someone is saying and may accept their point for the sake of discussion, but that does not mean that I believe or even agree with them. I need more than faith and conviction to believe that something is true.

I feel this is probably not a fair analogy, because cars are man made, and you would assume that a mechanic would be trained and he would also have a car manual with the exact detail of all components. Therefore he should have all the knowledge to fix a man made car.
If God exists, then Christians or Muslims, or Hindu cannot have that same extensive knowledge about God; because we did not create God.
Why then do they all claim they speak for god, and they each know what he/she/it wants? Most of them seem to claim they are experts in god and their holy books are the maintenance manual.

Cipher Girl · 03-31-2003, 10:59 PM

Hi Jobar
This thread is an excellent case in point. Look at the posts of smalltown, Eric, the_cave, and Christopher13. Do those posts seem to be in any way cohesive and mutually supporting? Or as wildly different as the preaching of the itinerant prophets in Monty Python's Life of Bryan?

Personally, I think its because the concept of a god is made up and this god concept is as individual as each person making it up. Contrast that with our position which is fairly consistant.

Hi Mageth
Mageth's Corollary:
Hell is the Principle's Office for adults. :notworthy

Hi Eric_H
Anyone who reads the Bible can interpret it in many ways, and hence we have hundreds or possibly thousands of Christian religions, plus we have thousands of non-Christian religions.

It seems to me that this is a symptom of god being a construct of the human mind rather that the other way around.

smalltown · 04-01-2003, 01:09 AM

smalltown said:The Big Bang was a neutral event (it can't be defined as good or bad) the first microorganisms were neutral (again it can't be defined as good or bad),

Mageth replied:From my viewpoint, both events were quite good!

smalltown replies:to say that both events were good is saying that something else was controlling the events to make them good, in and of themselves they are neither good nor bad they just happened(assuming you believe in evolution which I do not)

smalltown said:therefore since everything evolved from neutrality, good and evil do not exist

Mageth replied:A false conclusion, since the concepts of good and evil obviously do exist in the minds of us humans.

smalltown replies:if you believe in evolution this not a false conclusion, if we came from an event that was neither good nor bad and from micro organisms which were neither good nor bad, then when did good and bad come about if they were never there in the first place.

smalltown said:I cannot accept this, I believe that in all of us there is either a desire to do good or evil, and we know what they are.

Mageth replied:Show me someone, anyone, who does only good or only evil. There is no such person. Things are a lot more complex than you think.

smalltown replies:Mageth is right and I used poor language, obviously there in no such person who does only good or only evil. I believe that everyone does both, the point I was making is that we know in our hearts what good is and what evil is and that is because there is Higher Power that defines that for us.

smalltown said:I believe the choices we make in this lifetime have eternal consequences, if I murder someone and cause that family grief and suffering, their will be accountability beyond this life.

Mageth replied:So hope for eternal revenge is "good"? You think anyone suffering for eternity for what they've done here on earth is "accountability"? I studied accounting a bit; the books are supposed to balance.

smalltown replies:I know Hell ain't PC, but it is real. I deserve Hell for the choices I make every day and yes I deserve accountablility for my actions (the alternative of lack of accountability frightens me more). I have no illusions about what kind of person I am, I deserve Hell, only God's grace will get me to Heaven.

smalltown said:If I say something to hurt your feelings, what do I care if there is no heaven or hell, I will just go on hurting everyones feelings.

Mageth replied:So someone who, as his most evil act, hurts someone else's feelings is going to suffer the same eternal fate as the murderer? AFAIK there's no heaven or hell, I don't long for or fear either, and I don't go about hurting everyone's feelings for no reason.

smalltown replies:I agree with Mageth that whether you are theist or atheist most people do not hurt other people for no reason at all. However sin is all the same in God's eyes, I am just as guilty as the murderer for calling someone an idiot, dummy, etc... As a Christian the focus isn't on what sins are worse than others (that is for human laws to decide), but how do I not sin and stay focused on God.

Darkblade · 04-01-2003, 01:59 AM

smalltown:

No. Morality is created by humans until proven otherwise. Therefore Mageth's thoughts are not incorrect.

Darkblade · 04-01-2003, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cipher Girl

Hi Darkblade, great post, so, so true.:notworthy

Thanks. That was the first :notworthy I've been given here (as far as I know). I respond, in turn: :notworthy

malookiemaloo · 04-01-2003, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cipher Girl
Eric's reply is a good example of why it sometimes so frustrating to talk to a theist about the existance of god. They themselves cannot define god in any concrete details, so they retreat into convoluted and almost incomprensible language (godspeak?). Or else they retreat into assuming god exists for emotional reasons. It makes them feel good that some powerful force notices them, even if there is not a shred of evidence to back this up.

I don't mind this, except that they seem to have this need for me to be exactly like them. Why, I don't know. Here's an example. I once worked at a company, programming computers. It was a job I needed to pay the bills until something in my field came up. I'm an applied mathematician, but am also a very good computer programmer.

One of the managers was very "Hey everybody, notice me, I'm a christian." I worked with two other women, one a mathematics intern, and one a computer programmer. We were all fairly liberal, and I made no secret of my disbelief, though I tend to respect other people and try not to be deliberately offensive unless someone is offensive to me first. In fact another coworker who was very evangelistic and myself always had a lot of fun debating religion in a very friendly way.

Well one day a couple of weeks before Christmas, I came in to work and found a religious tract stuck in my keyboards. Everyone else had a religous christmas card (not the tract), even one person who was jewish. Talk about obnoxious. We knew who did it, as someone saw him placing the cards. It was the manager, lucky for me was not my manager, who did this. He also seemed to be very disturbed everytime me and the other coworker debated religion while we worked.

From previous comments made by this manager, I knew that he felt very threatened by questioning religous conversations in the office. He wanted everybody to believe the same as him, but could not give any valid reasons, other than hell, to do so. Anyway, I was fairly pissed by the tract and threw it into the trash without reading it. I did this right in front of him, with the comment "Well that was really offensive, talk about not respecting others rights to believe as they choose." He turned rather red and you could see his jaw clench. But he couldn't really do anything about it as we were a govenment contractor, and one of our customers was a good friend of mine. Luckily, I found a position more to my liking a couple of months later.

Why is it those theists who seem to be the most dogmatic about their beliefs also the ones who seem to be the most inept at explaining them?

I just cannot believe in something just because I can conceptualize it in my mind. I wonder if this is why come religous groups discourage their members from reading fiction. But, I need physical evidence.

This is not meant to be a trite answer but if you want to know what God's like, look at Jesus.

m

Darkblade · 04-01-2003, 04:07 AM

?

Please elaborate...

Mageth · 04-01-2003, 08:03 AM

smalltown:

to say that both events were good is saying that something else was controlling the events to make them good, in and of themselves they are neither good nor bad they just happened(assuming you believe in evolution which I do not)

Well, note that I said from my perspective, both events were good. Nothing else had to be controlling them to make them good from my perspective.

if you believe in evolution this not a false conclusion, if we came from an event that was neither good nor bad and from micro organisms which were neither good nor bad, then when did good and bad come about if they were never there in the first place.

How did Shakespeare's works come to be if they were not there in the first place? How about the works of Bach, William Carlos Williams, Georgia O'Keefe? How about the U.S. Constitution? How about the Tao Te Ching? How about the Eiffel Tower? How did the rules of baseball come about if they were not there in the first place?

Hint: we humans are resourceful, creative creatures. We like order. We like order in our society. More than that, we needed order in our society for them to work. So we developed morals, rulels of "good and bad." We've been working on them, refining them, redefining them for thousands of years now, to better work in our changing societies.

the point I was making is that we know in our hearts what good is and what evil is and that is because there is Higher Power that defines that for us.

A big leap your taking, there. We're not born knowing "good and evil" in our hearts; we learn (subjectively) what is considered good and evil from our parents and society. No god necessary.

I know Hell ain't PC, but it is real.

Hold on; you can assert that hell is real, believe it is real, but you can't claim or establish that it is real.

I deserve Hell for the choices I make every day and yes I deserve accountablility for my actions (the alternative of lack of accountability frightens me more).

Why? What's so great about being eternally accountable for every little action you take in your life, no matter how trivial?

I have no illusions about what kind of person I am, I deserve Hell, only God's grace will get me to Heaven.

Perhaps you need to work on your self-image. Not even I think that poorly of you; you seem a nice enough chap.

BTW, I don't think, say, Hitler was such a nice chap. He needed to pay for his crimes, but that doesn't mean I think he deserves eternal, horrible suffering in hell for his actions here on earth. On the scales of justice, that just doesn't balance, not even for Hitler, much less for you or me.

I agree with Mageth that whether you are theist or atheist most people do not hurt other people for no reason at all. However sin is all the same in God's eyes, I am just as guilty as the murderer for calling someone an idiot, dummy, etc... As a Christian the focus isn't on what sins are worse than others (that is for human laws to decide), but how do I not sin and stay focused on God.

And yet another example of the unjust Xian punishment system. Name-callers get the death penalty just like murderers, to run consecutively with eternal jailtime in the torture chamber of hell.

Tell me, do you think it would be just if our Justice System carried the same penalty for name-callers as it does for murderers? 15-30 years for second degree name calling, 25 to life for first degree name calling, and the mandatory death penalty for such heinous crimes as mass name calling, serial name calling, or name-calling a police officer?

If not, why would it be just for god to do just that?

beastmaster · 04-01-2003, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cipher Girl
How could something both exist in the universe and not exist in the universe at the same time?

I dunno. It's a paradox, like Schroedinger's Cat, perhaps? God, if he were anywhere, would be *beyond* space-time and unanswerable to the concrete logic of space-time. It seems certain to me that if god *did* exist, then he would be nothing like what we could imagine him to be. How can god not be paradoxical?

['Course this is what I find ultimately bankrupt about Xn faith: God, if he existed, would be *so* utterly incomprehensible that authentic worship is impossible.]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cipher Girl
If god does exist in the universe then there would something we could observe or measure. Some natural law would need to have a god as part of the equation. If god does not exists in the universe and has no effects, then of course its the same as no god.

Yes, I agree with you. There is no evidence of god. He does not exist.

But I don't think we need a coherent (or non-vague) definition of god to infer his non-existence.

Cipher Girl · 04-01-2003, 07:35 PM

This is not meant to be a trite answer but if you want to know what God's like, look at Jesus.
Not to be flippant, but where's he at so you can point him out to me?

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03-31-2003, 10:50 PM	#51
Cipher Girl Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Sunny Southern California Posts: 657	Hi beastmaster OK, here's where I disagree. I am not convinced that it is impossible for god to both transcend the universe and affect the universe at the same time. Sorry, that's just not axiomatic for me. Just because something seems contradictory or paradoxical or counterintuitive to us humans doesn't mean it cannot be true. How could something both exist in the universe and not exist in the universe at the same time? If god does exist in the universe then there would something we could observe or measure. Some natural law would need to have a god as part of the equation. If god does not exists in the universe and has no effects, then of course its the same as no god. I don't think any person can posit something that is totally incomprehensible, as they would not be able to posit it in the first place. I think religious people have an idea in their head when they talk about god. Unfortunately, usually this idea is not completely thought out and this results in the person changing their mind in the course of a discussion. Hi Darkblade, great post, so, so true.:notworthy Hi Eric_H I agree with the above quote totally. As you say, unless the other person is �willing� to understand, the chances are, that they will not. It seems that both atheists and theists are not willing to understand the opposing view, because we have both become entrenched in our own views. I sense from reading posts in this forum that it probably takes about the same amount of research, conviction and faith to hold either view. I say faith or trust for an atheist in a loose sense because there is not absolute proof that God does not exist. Willing to understand is not the same thing as willing to believe. I may completely understand what someone is saying and may accept their point for the sake of discussion, but that does not mean that I believe or even agree with them. I need more than faith and conviction to believe that something is true. I feel this is probably not a fair analogy, because cars are man made, and you would assume that a mechanic would be trained and he would also have a car manual with the exact detail of all components. Therefore he should have all the knowledge to fix a man made car. If God exists, then Christians or Muslims, or Hindu cannot have that same extensive knowledge about God; because we did not create God. Why then do they all claim they speak for god, and they each know what he/she/it wants? Most of them seem to claim they are experts in god and their holy books are the maintenance manual.

03-31-2003, 10:59 PM	#52
Cipher Girl Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Sunny Southern California Posts: 657	Hi Jobar This thread is an excellent case in point. Look at the posts of smalltown, Eric, the_cave, and Christopher13. Do those posts seem to be in any way cohesive and mutually supporting? Or as wildly different as the preaching of the itinerant prophets in Monty Python's Life of Bryan? Personally, I think its because the concept of a god is made up and this god concept is as individual as each person making it up. Contrast that with our position which is fairly consistant. Hi Mageth Mageth's Corollary: Hell is the Principle's Office for adults. :notworthy Hi Eric_H Anyone who reads the Bible can interpret it in many ways, and hence we have hundreds or possibly thousands of Christian religions, plus we have thousands of non-Christian religions. It seems to me that this is a symptom of god being a construct of the human mind rather that the other way around.

04-01-2003, 01:09 AM	#53
smalltown Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 11	smalltown said:The Big Bang was a neutral event (it can't be defined as good or bad) the first microorganisms were neutral (again it can't be defined as good or bad), Mageth replied:From my viewpoint, both events were quite good! smalltown replies:to say that both events were good is saying that something else was controlling the events to make them good, in and of themselves they are neither good nor bad they just happened(assuming you believe in evolution which I do not) smalltown said:therefore since everything evolved from neutrality, good and evil do not exist Mageth replied:A false conclusion, since the concepts of good and evil obviously do exist in the minds of us humans. smalltown replies:if you believe in evolution this not a false conclusion, if we came from an event that was neither good nor bad and from micro organisms which were neither good nor bad, then when did good and bad come about if they were never there in the first place. smalltown said:I cannot accept this, I believe that in all of us there is either a desire to do good or evil, and we know what they are. Mageth replied:Show me someone, anyone, who does only good or only evil. There is no such person. Things are a lot more complex than you think. smalltown replies:Mageth is right and I used poor language, obviously there in no such person who does only good or only evil. I believe that everyone does both, the point I was making is that we know in our hearts what good is and what evil is and that is because there is Higher Power that defines that for us. smalltown said:I believe the choices we make in this lifetime have eternal consequences, if I murder someone and cause that family grief and suffering, their will be accountability beyond this life. Mageth replied:So hope for eternal revenge is "good"? You think anyone suffering for eternity for what they've done here on earth is "accountability"? I studied accounting a bit; the books are supposed to balance. smalltown replies:I know Hell ain't PC, but it is real. I deserve Hell for the choices I make every day and yes I deserve accountablility for my actions (the alternative of lack of accountability frightens me more). I have no illusions about what kind of person I am, I deserve Hell, only God's grace will get me to Heaven. smalltown said:If I say something to hurt your feelings, what do I care if there is no heaven or hell, I will just go on hurting everyones feelings. Mageth replied:So someone who, as his most evil act, hurts someone else's feelings is going to suffer the same eternal fate as the murderer? AFAIK there's no heaven or hell, I don't long for or fear either, and I don't go about hurting everyone's feelings for no reason. smalltown replies:I agree with Mageth that whether you are theist or atheist most people do not hurt other people for no reason at all. However sin is all the same in God's eyes, I am just as guilty as the murderer for calling someone an idiot, dummy, etc... As a Christian the focus isn't on what sins are worse than others (that is for human laws to decide), but how do I not sin and stay focused on God.

04-01-2003, 01:59 AM	#54
Darkblade Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: I am both omnipresent AND ubiquitous. Posts: 130	smalltown: No. Morality is created by humans until proven otherwise. Therefore Mageth's thoughts are not incorrect.

04-01-2003, 04:07 AM	#57
Darkblade Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: I am both omnipresent AND ubiquitous. Posts: 130	? Please elaborate...

04-01-2003, 08:03 AM	#58
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	smalltown: to say that both events were good is saying that something else was controlling the events to make them good, in and of themselves they are neither good nor bad they just happened(assuming you believe in evolution which I do not) Well, note that I said from my perspective, both events were good. Nothing else had to be controlling them to make them good from my perspective. if you believe in evolution this not a false conclusion, if we came from an event that was neither good nor bad and from micro organisms which were neither good nor bad, then when did good and bad come about if they were never there in the first place. How did Shakespeare's works come to be if they were not there in the first place? How about the works of Bach, William Carlos Williams, Georgia O'Keefe? How about the U.S. Constitution? How about the Tao Te Ching? How about the Eiffel Tower? How did the rules of baseball come about if they were not there in the first place? Hint: we humans are resourceful, creative creatures. We like order. We like order in our society. More than that, we needed order in our society for them to work. So we developed morals, rulels of "good and bad." We've been working on them, refining them, redefining them for thousands of years now, to better work in our changing societies. the point I was making is that we know in our hearts what good is and what evil is and that is because there is Higher Power that defines that for us. A big leap your taking, there. We're not born knowing "good and evil" in our hearts; we learn (subjectively) what is considered good and evil from our parents and society. No god necessary. I know Hell ain't PC, but it is real. Hold on; you can assert that hell is real, believe it is real, but you can't claim or establish that it is real. I deserve Hell for the choices I make every day and yes I deserve accountablility for my actions (the alternative of lack of accountability frightens me more). Why? What's so great about being eternally accountable for every little action you take in your life, no matter how trivial? I have no illusions about what kind of person I am, I deserve Hell, only God's grace will get me to Heaven. Perhaps you need to work on your self-image. Not even I think that poorly of you; you seem a nice enough chap. BTW, I don't think, say, Hitler was such a nice chap. He needed to pay for his crimes, but that doesn't mean I think he deserves eternal, horrible suffering in hell for his actions here on earth. On the scales of justice, that just doesn't balance, not even for Hitler, much less for you or me. I agree with Mageth that whether you are theist or atheist most people do not hurt other people for no reason at all. However sin is all the same in God's eyes, I am just as guilty as the murderer for calling someone an idiot, dummy, etc... As a Christian the focus isn't on what sins are worse than others (that is for human laws to decide), but how do I not sin and stay focused on God. And yet another example of the unjust Xian punishment system. Name-callers get the death penalty just like murderers, to run consecutively with eternal jailtime in the torture chamber of hell. Tell me, do you think it would be just if our Justice System carried the same penalty for name-callers as it does for murderers? 15-30 years for second degree name calling, 25 to life for first degree name calling, and the mandatory death penalty for such heinous crimes as mass name calling, serial name calling, or name-calling a police officer? If not, why would it be just for god to do just that?

04-01-2003, 07:35 PM	#60
Cipher Girl Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Sunny Southern California Posts: 657	This is not meant to be a trite answer but if you want to know what God's like, look at Jesus. Not to be flippant, but where's he at so you can point him out to me?

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